This topic contains 25 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by Gareth 6 years, 3 months ago.
April 23, 2012 at 3:44 pm #12595
I am keen to get myself a drill. I am though, a little uneducated in the world of whats what on this subject. Any feedback and advice would be appreciated, I figure a battery over petrol is going to be quieter (and less smelly), but are they powerful enough? and how do batteries hold up? Can anyone point me to a site that gives good in depth reviews on drills as well as bolting “how to” for that matter (the practical not ethical side).
GarethApril 24, 2012 at 2:45 pm #12598
where are you planning on bolting Gareth?. It would have to be significant to be considering shelling out $1200 minimum for a decent drill. Plus all other costs that come along with such a venture. do you know someone who is willing to lend you one?.April 24, 2012 at 6:05 pm #12599
Thanks for the reply. There are some routes in Mt Quarry that could do with some work (full compliance with all ethics of course). And of course the drill should last a while and will be good for developing other lines as found and possible in the future.
GarethApril 24, 2012 at 6:19 pm #12600
friend of Numbat
Which routes at Mountain Quarry ?
Not wishing to dampen your enthusiasm; but bolting, especially rebolting needs to be conducted by those already experienced at bolting. 99.9% of the rebolting around Perth is done by people with pretty good resumes of new routes (bolted and otherwise) and I believe this has been the prime reason for the good quality rebolting and relative lack of controversy. I am keen to see it stay that way.
Most routes worthy of rebolting at Mountain quarry have already been done. Some of the rebolting crew are still around and could be tempted out of retirement should the route warrant it. Let’s hear your ideas ??April 24, 2012 at 10:37 pm #12602
I agree with ‘friend of Numbat’.
I realise that experienced bolters were once also novices at the activity, but you will find that they went and practised out in the bush on random boulders, out of sight of anyone, before attacking routes in major climbing areas. As time goes on we will see new people bolting. I enjoy doing new routes as much as anyone. It just disturbs me when people start talking about going out and drilling…it’s not just the ethics, it’s also about the safety. Bolting well is a fine art. There has been some excellent rebolting done and hopefully there will be some consultation with the appropriate people before anyone new gets drill happy…April 25, 2012 at 9:25 am #12606
I understand Friends and Dena’s concerns and indeed have already addressed most of the points. The drill came about as an offer to an experienced bolter (some of the best (safest) bolted routes in MQ IMO) and as Pete mentioned a bloody expensive offer. I am keen to get into bolting, and offered to buy a drill with the sly hope of being shown a few of the tricks I may not already know.
I have 15 plus years climbing experience and first climbed at MQ back in 1996, I know alot of the routes and their first ascentionists well and have no intention of treading on anyones toes (even the routes I think are unsafe!). I have 10 plus years working in the climbing industry with safety as my absolute priority at all times and consider myself one of the safer style climbers.
Its kind of disheartening to be shot down as “we know better” instead of offering assistance and advice. Please try to remember you were bolt virgins once.April 25, 2012 at 9:43 am #12607
I’m with Gareth. He asked for some help and advice. The responses so far are pretty thin on both. The assumption that he’s some kind of cowboy who has nothing better to do but drop $1200 on a drill then spend hours hanging on a rope drilling holes in the rock, without any thought to the safety, ethics etc etc seems a bit small minded. How about we assume he’s not a kook, and help him out with what he needs to know – pretty sure he’s full bottle on the “concerns” by now – and who knows, maybe we’ll all benefit with better bolts and more routes.April 25, 2012 at 8:42 pm #12608
Hey Gareth I,ve been doing a bit of rebolting and have still more to do. It takes a little while to sort out a good system and your more than welcome to come along and check out how I go about it if your down in the south west. firstname.lastname@example.org rebolting gives you a bit of experience and you soon learn what works and what doesn’t.
P.S anyone keen on seeing all the mank on delving devoids removed ? has anyone ticked it what is the grade? Also, mick mentioned the bolts on heavy metal have been replaced once since the FA, but they still look a little uninspiring, any thoughts?
Shaved Cat is a bit of an embarrasment and the lower off is shite also that 17 round the corner that everyone ticks maybe..April 26, 2012 at 8:49 am #12610
Thanks Pete and Kim. Kim if I get the opportunity, I may take you up on your kind offer.
GarethApril 26, 2012 at 8:54 am #12611
Gareth – which routes at Mountain Quarry would you like to see rebolted ?
(George and I are still around and we have some bolts for this sort of thing)
As far as I am aware the bolts on Heavy Metal have not been replaced since the FA, but I am happy to be corrected. I don’t think they need changing.
The bolts on Delving Devoids look terrible. But it has only seen 2-3 ascents in the last 10years. Anyone trying it has the skills to make a judgment themselves about the bolts. I don’t think the route’s quality justifies rebolting. Sometimes less is more; especially at such a popular cliff used by so many non-climbers.
Bobs – it is hard to tell how good/bad those bolts are that you mention. The loweroffs look pretty silly and probably should be replaced. But assuming the original bolters put them into the rock far enough it is more of an asthetic thing.
If you do any rebolting at any of these or other sea cliffs, can you please make sure you use RE500. Whilst it is a bit of an overkill at inland cliffs, at places like Bob’s it should be the only glue accepted for rebolting.
Is this what you have used at Willies up to now ?
(Sorry if this is an exercise in egg sucking).April 26, 2012 at 11:38 am #12612
Sorry for the confusion, I don’t think I ever mentioned “rebolting”, just some routes (I actually meant new routes) that could do with some work.
However, I did have a chat with someone on the weekend who did mention a route (I haven’t been on for years, so can’t comment on its current bolt status) I know it used to have some shocking bolting. However, the conversation was mainly talking about some new lines, I offered to help out in anyway, offering hardware, he said he had plenty but a drill was the issue as his is now dead. I offered to help out as I would like to learn more and maybe help grow climbing in WA for the future. Hence asked the forum for advice on drills!
GarethApril 26, 2012 at 7:00 pm #12614
neil you can suck my eggs anytime, I just dont like looking at the start of DD and thought pulling that rusted ring and bent carrot might be worthy and replaced with epoxy filler putty and a gimb.
Was thinking of pulling the u bolts lower off on shaved cat which will also tell me the condition of the u’s on route, the rings with the shaft sticking out are a bit out there too..
RE500 is the bomb so is titanium if anyone wants to donate??.
Ramset capsules, 801, powers ac100 are good for most applications 🙂April 26, 2012 at 7:47 pm #12615
Titanium ??? I don’t see how that is needed for WA.
Rebolting at bobs should be done with re500 as a minimum, and probably at willies as well.
I have no idea about ac100, can be it be used in damp situations ?
Ramset 801 is not in the same league as the Hilti stuff and shouldn’t really be considered for rebolting when there are better alternatives.
Ramset capsules are even worse in my opinion. i don’t think they should be used for bolting or rebolting.
To give you an idea; you can pretty much always twist and unwind out a bolt glued in with 801 or capsules. But the same bolt glued in with re500 will snap off flush with the rock rather than twist out.April 28, 2012 at 9:36 am #12621
Oh yeah that’s right, the re500 can hold an f350 while the 801 only a landcruiser. Sorry to hijack your thread Gareth. All the glues I mentioned are on the safercliffs website and are commonly used. Damp conditions? What, when you are placing the bolt or after the glue’s gone off? They’re using Sikaflex in Tassie! The glue holds the bolt to the wall and creates a barrier. If it’s a good bolt and placed in a well prepared hole, even a basic poly resin glue can be adequate to hold the sideways pull of a falling climber, or a small cummins, especially in granite, for many years. Obviously with improvements in adhesion products, there are a lot of different types available and of course the “better” alternatives are often quite expensive.
Yes it is easy to twist out some bolts! Belt it with a gympie and twist it out with vicegrips or a bar. A falling climber would never create these forces on a bolt.
Epoxy acrylate capsules which include an aggregate, if placed correctly with a machine bolt, are very strong, hard to remove and efficient. They also have the least amount of waste produced, no nozzles, no tube and nothing left except the small cardboard box.
Some of the bolts I have replaced at moses rocks are this type. Along with a 3/8 x 3in 316gr machine bolt, which is etched and notched on the shank above the thread until half an inch below the head, and tapered at the tip so it keys into the glue.
There are a lot of good options by hilti, ramset and others as far as glue goes.
Having replaced quite a few types of bolts in different rock including glue-ins, expansions and carrots (bashed and glued), it’s amazing to see what forces need to be applied to pull/break old bolts.. Replacing fixed protection requires a lot of thought and preparation, and money. The re-bolting I do is nearly totally self-funded with small donations from locals or the eastern states.
Neil I do have some 316gr fixe eyebolts that would go well with the hilti re500 on shaved cat if they are worthy of replacing. If what you say is correct, then the bolts on HM are 25 years old and are fh’s, think theyr’e expansions which aren’t ideal and on one of the classics probably qualify for re-bolting?. Have also looked at some of the lower-offs at wallcliffe on routes such as the sting and the hired gun which the bolts (gimb’s) still look quite ok although the rusted shackles could be replaced. Atleast there are no bees on these lines.
I would be keen to hear of any others that are noticeably average and worthy of a closer look in the south west.
P.S By the way, this couldn’t be the Neil who placed some bash-ins on the west face of Gib rock or used (apparently) sub-par glue at the northerth end of wily’s on a few routes?! I’ve climbed the lines mentioned and after what I’ve learned from replacing bolts, I have since realised how safe I was.April 28, 2012 at 1:47 pm #12622
Looks like we’ll have to agree to disagree on glue types.
As for damp rock – I was referring to Bob’s and probably Wallcliffe. I think you’ll find it is fairly common to have damp holes there 🙂
Sub par glue at the northern crag ?
Could you be more…… specific ?
The only glue I have used in WA for rock climbing was either RE500, HIT150 or HE?100 (? whatever is was called before 150 came out).
Nice bit of stone throwing there. Not living in a glass house are we ?April 28, 2012 at 2:33 pm #12623
you guys aren’t seriously arguing about which glue is bestApril 28, 2012 at 5:16 pm #12625
Hey again Neil no I smashed it years ago, living under a bridge now 😉
It was tongue in cheek about the glue at wilys and carrots mate, I have no issues with any of them.
Obviously the re500 wins hands down for limestone.
I would like to think that we have both raised some valid points when it comes to bolting.
Support and encouragement goes a long way for those who are actively re-bolting. We are all here to learn and do the best we can with what we have.
Climb and bolt safeApril 28, 2012 at 6:41 pm #12626
No worries Kym.
It can be hard to spot tongues on the internet. Let me know if you need a tick list for Arapiles.
🙂April 28, 2012 at 7:12 pm #12627
Informative and entertainingMay 16, 2012 at 9:00 pm #12698
Hilti probably makes the best drill, but Bosch, Panasonic and a few others also make them, and they are a lot cheaper. It HAS TO BE a ‘rotary hammer drill’. A ‘hammer drill’ just won’t do – you’ll spend 3 days drilling one hole otherwise.
Drill bits – the Hilti/Bosch/Pana etc use SDS or SDS+ bits. These have a bayonet locking mechanism. From B, a 12 mm SDS is $20 – $35, from a toolshop they are $10 – $15. Hmmm… and B advertises that they are cheaper!
Glue – the Hilti glues are very good, but Ramset and Sika also make similar glues. The good thing about the Ramset and Sika is that they are available from just about any hardware shop (B has them, and if you can find anything other than B, then they will probably have it too, and cheaper) and they go into a standard silicone-type gun. The Hilti needs a special (and expensive) gun.
Spin-capsules are also very good, especially if you only do a few here and there. With tubes of Hilti/Ramset/Sika etc, you end up wasting half the glue. The Spin caps are glass capsules that contain glue and aggregate (quartz grains) and a smaller internal cap with hardener. Drill the hole, insert the cap, put the bolt in so the cap breaks, spin the bolt in with the drill (hammer off, and you need a socket that goes in the drill – I made one up). Spin caps are great for GIMBs and studs with hangers, but not ringbolts, as it’s hard to spin a ringbolt and also the caps are designed for a certain size hole which is too deep for most (eg Petzl) ringbolts. You need to grind a chisel-point on the end of the bolt first however, or the glue will not mix correctly. I find that a bolt-plate over the hole as the bolt spins in helps to stop the glue leaking out, then use a knife to tidy it up.
Another thing to consider is that some glues set FAST! The spin caps, Sika and Ramset and … one of the Hilti’s – will gel in 2 minutes on a hot day and you can climb on them in 30 minutes. However this also can cause a problem in that if you are not quick the glue sets before the bolt is in and also in the nozzle of the gun. Chilling the glue cartridge can help! The other option is to bolt when it’s cold, which gives you 10 – 20 minutes before gel and 2 – 4 hours to set, or use the slow-setting Hilti (which is stronger anyway) and climb the next day.
Of course you can always use expansion bolts – drill, insert, tighten, climb!
The main thing is to practice – getting it right can be hard and trying it out on a 100 kg lump of MQ back at home really helps!
And who is my friend? I didn’t know I had any! Come around then, and bring a bottle of wine!May 17, 2012 at 10:24 am #12724
Thanks to everyone who has added valuable information to this thread and to me in person.May 17, 2012 at 2:05 pm #12735
One more thing about glue – check the use-by date on the tube or pack of spincaps. Half (or more) of the stuff on the shelves in the shops are past the UBD. Preferably only buy glue before you need it and keep it in a cool place. If using a tube (eg Hilti, Sika, ramset etc), squirt out the glue until it is uniform colour – ie properly mixed. The first 20 – 50 ml is usually streaked and not mixed properly.
Spincaps are avaliable from Blackwoods, Atkin-Carlyle and most speciality fastener suppliers.May 21, 2012 at 10:16 pm #12821
Since people asked, the chain at the top of city limits is a bit stupid… the links are too small to accept a carabiner (not to mention a bit rusty) and the using a hanger on the carrots doesn\’t seem ideal either. you can use the chain like a sling, bot there is zero redundancy… Anyone keen to fix it up?June 8, 2012 at 5:34 pm #12942
Gareth, are the $1200 drill from the US or OZ?
As for the Glue, Hilti 500. Yes its an expensive system, but it works.
I had the Sika stuff setting in the nozzle on a 20 degree day, or worse, not set at all in the hole.June 17, 2012 at 3:46 pm #13021
If anyone needs a hand re-bolting I’m still around to help out. Haven’t been climbing now for some time for various reasons but always happy to lend a hand bolting. Together with Emil, Neil, George, Kate, Nick (sorry for anyone missed out) etc we managed to re-bolt most of the old established climbs in Mountain and Stathams Quarry, so feel free to ask if any information or help is required.
Hilti RE-500 is definitely the glue of choice both for climbing and in use for hi-strength bonding requirements in construction and Hilti drills would certainly be my choice over any other. Yes expensive and messy, so just technique is required. Bit like climbing really!