Home Forums Climbing Talk goings on at Mountain Quarry

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  • #1959 Reply
    Neil
    Guest

    What do people think of CALM’s efforts at Mountain Quarry ?

    The mega-bolting on skywalker wall looks to have spoilt “Star Wars” and “PE”. “Urban Ethics” may still be ok. The concrete / aggregate spray on stuff seems a bit silly. It has been applied in some very strange places where nobody ever goes. It has also been applied so that the spray over has partially covered some lower off bolts which may cause problems.

    The bulldozing and rearranging of rocks on the quarry floor looks pretty messy at the moment – dunno why they did this..

    Is CALM going to restore some of the classic spray painting ? eg ‘Mullup’, ‘Fuzz Bucky’, ‘Holdens Rule’ The cultural significance of this can not be understated.

    #1960 Reply
    Ross
    Member

    Yeah – I was told that the loweroff bolts on Crazy Horse are concreted over. So beware.

    I expect that CALM has money in their budget to will pay for the materials AND TIME for someone to go and fix the mess, i.e. damaged bolts and anchors.

    #1961 Reply
    Brett N-P
    Member

    Yeah, Crazy Horse is a mess .. covered in dirt & rock dust – I was unable to get past the 2nd bolt last weekend, yet have done it a number of times before it was CALM-ed. A while section of rock to the left of the main line has disappeared too … you can see the lower offs are still there, but have some concrete covering – couldn’t see how much as I couldn’t get close enough.

    Another problem is that all the boulders we used to use for belay anchors have been removed – I had to back my car in & girth hitch the towbar, as my belayer is lightweight!

    cheers,

    Brett

    Boya.

    #1962 Reply
    Climber X
    Member

    Had a look at the quarry work. In my opinion the work is progressing Ok.

    I am grateful that this work is being undertaken for climbers, rather than the quarry being closed because of high risks (perceived or actual, its all relative)….

    In my opinion there doesnt seem to ne much to whinge about. Bolt stations can be easily replaced, rock cuttings and dust can be easily removed, and belay partners can put on weight to account for missing belay rocks. Does anyone have any real issues?

    Climber X

    PS: Its worth noting that in general, quarry slopes deteriorate much quicker than natural cliffs, thus the work may not seem necessary to the untrained (non-geotechnical eye), but we must trust the geotech’s.

    #1963 Reply
    Climber X
    Member

    By the way, I forgot to add – its our climbing area so why dont we do something about these minor issues ourselves? ie rebolting etc?

    We cant expect CALM to cater for our every need…

    #1964 Reply
    Climber XY
    Member

    G’day, Climber X

    Who is “we” ? Are you volunteering to repair climbs and loweroffs, i.e. pay for it yourself and spend days hanging on rope doing the job, for which you will get no credit, as these are not your routes ? Talk is cheap, action costs. Does anybody NOT see this as a problem ?

    #1965 Reply
    Neil
    Member

    Bolts ?

    CALM are unlikely to touch them.

    The priority should be graffiti re-instatement.

    –< Long live the bogans. >–

    #1966 Reply
    Climber X
    Member

    Yes I am volunteering but I am waiting for the end of calms work before starting my own work… All new bolts will be petzl glue-ins with hilti, in the same locations as other bolts (any objections?). All old pitions that are dodgy will be pulled. All old bolts that are dodgy will be pulled (including any dodgy carrots).

    My motivations are selfish – if I want to climb a route then I may as well fix it first.

    #1967 Reply
    Jamie
    Member

    Glad to see someone doing something positive to improve the “redevelopment” of the quarries…

    especially in regard to replacing any bolts that have been destroyed by the redevelopments..

    just one point… it still is probably worthwhile to contact the original first assendant and gain there permission…. probably a formality in this incident…i’m just remembering an ugly incident where one particuar climb in mountain quarry was retrobolted about 8 years ago and the “offending” bolts were promptly chopped…

    just a thought

    even though i dont climb often at mountain quarry you have my support and i hope you get the support of the mainstream climbing community

    #1968 Reply
    Ross
    Member

    Climber X – good on ya for volunteering, there isn’t many of us. (I have volunteered myself and replaced all the loweroff anchors at Wungong Slabs 3 years ago.)

    Before you go out and buy all the goodies (bolts, glue), be aware that CALM may have funds allocated to pay for the hardware, so that CAWA may be able to extract a pay check out of them and save you $$. Talk to the CAWA committee, contacts on this web site. (CAWA paid for the Wungong bolts). Any info can be completely confidential, incl who you are. In my personal opinion, replacing dodgy bolts does not require any agreement from first ascentionist, it’s not their call to make others risk their life. It is reasonable that if a climb is bolted, the pro can be relied on. But a courtesy phone call would certainly be in order. There are some obvious gray areas like “what is a dodgy bolt ?” and ” if a couple of carrots need replacing, does this justify rebolting the whole climb?” especially if the replacement bolts are ring bolts etc. I have contact details of a few people.

    Regardless of the CALM work, there is a bigger issue here, I feel that there is a lot of bolted climbs in the quarries where the fixed protection is of such low standard and such bad state that these routes lie idle, ie noone leads them. This is a waste of a good resource. Bolts should be replaced or even repositioned as need be or even added if absolutely necessary (obviously another gray area, but often first ascentionists toprope and manufacture climbs to death so they know every move before trying to “lead” them – with almost no risk of falling from the “dodgy spots”. The picture is significantly different if someone tries to onsight the same climb).

    Anyway, do contact the CAWA Committee or give me an email on ross.weiter@granherne.com and I can get you in touch with Jon Gregg who is CAWA’s contact with CALM re: the quarries.

    #1969 Reply
    Climber X
    Member

    Thanks your encouragements.

    I agree with Ross; there is no need (or indeed requirement) to obtain the permission of the first ascentionist.

    However out of courtesy I will post my intentions on this web page before re-bolting existing routes (to allow for feedback).

    If a bolt is positioned badly, or a route is particularly underbolted I may add/reposition a bolt.

    Are most people happy with ring bolts as opposed to glue in carrots?

    It seems silly to go for low visibility bolting (carrots) when the appearance of entire quarry is being altered for climbing. This is a quarry.

    #1970 Reply
    Ross
    Member

    Yes I would go with ring bolts in quarries, or at least with glued in machine bolts and meaty fixed hangers. The total cost is about the same. Beware of using expansion bolts bolts though, the hangers can be removed and some have been stolen. I would also consider adding loweroffs.

    #1971 Reply
    Diane
    Member

    Yes PLEASE install loweroffs! I don’t see the point of bolting a climb and then not installing loweroffs- if you bolt a climb why does it make any difference to put loweroffs at the top??? ‘Downfalling’ a climb is NOT fun, is dangerous, and puts more stress on the bolts.

    And while I’m on the subject, two bolts that require bolt hangers are NOT loweroffs!! 🙂

    Nuff said, unless anyone out there has an argument for not having loweroffs on a sports climb? I’d love to hear it!

    #1972 Reply
    Jamie
    Member

    just in regard to diane’s point about two bolts requiring hangers….

    are there many locations in perth where this has occurred??

    where belay bolts requiring hangers are situated as an obvious loweroff?

    ponders the stupidity of the situation.

    #1973 Reply
    Neil
    Member

    Lower offs. If there were bash in U or P bolts I’m sure Perth would have a lot more lower-offs. The lack of lower-offs is due to the prominent technology used by the bolter and the fact that a carrot lower-off has yet to be implemented with any success. Without the carrot, we would have a lot less climbs to do.

    #1974 Reply
    Climber X
    Member

    I totally agree that lower-offs are nice (and appropriate) in the quarries.

    It seems to me that lower-off bolt is also appropriate at certain locations at Churchmans Brook, where there is obvious dangers/damage at the top of the cliff….but thats another issue which should be open to free-discussion.

    An routes that I re-bolt will have lower-offs with Petzel Glue in Rings.

    Ross, I much prefer glue-in-bolts to expansion bolts, for obvious reasons.

    #1975 Reply
    Climber X
    Member

    One way around the carrot lower-off problem is to place a link of chain over the carrot at the time of installation. You clip into the chain and thread your rope just like a ring bolt. This was once common practice in NZ and various locations in NSW.

    This places a greater bending moment on the bolt – I dont like it.

    #1976 Reply
    Ross
    Member

    I would not recommend threading directly through hardware store chains, these are made of mild steel and the links are eroded by grit in the rope. If using a chain, please invest in a stainless steel maillon in it (cost $10), then thread rope through the maillon. An old steel carabiner will be fine too. Glue the gate shut with Superglue to prevent removal. Better still, two carrots can be fitted with two fixed hangers and two maillons, but this increases cost from $4 per belay to $30. However no loweroff is less inconspiculous than a ring bolt. Note that the installed cost of a glue-in ring bolt, including glue, bolt and wear on drill bit, is about $10 each. The installed cost of a carrot including bolt and wear on drill bit is about $2, less if you buy 100s of them. This is why the people who use carrots do not put in lower-offs. Simple.

    Now people who disagree with carrots should get out there and start bolting and re-bolting according to the more modern and more long term philosophies. Ultimately it is the people doing the deeds who decide the standards. (Unless they majorly upset someone in the process.)

    Oh, I thought I would just throw this in: please do not ever add bolts to trad routes. I like trad stuff, it challenges me in ways bolts do not.

    #1977 Reply
    Neil
    Member

    Using hardware store Cad plated expansion bolts should also be avoided… Although some of Oz’s best have placed them.

    #1978 Reply
    Toc
    Member

    Hi all,

    I’ll say it a little more strongly than Ross. Adding bolts to naturally protectable climbs will offend just about everybody immensely, not that I’m implying climber X would do this. Just in case somebody out there, reading this discussion gets the idea that carte blanc bolting of every available route is being promoted, which of course I’m not suggesting is in anyone’s thoughts.

    Just as an aside for those who don’t know the joys of natural gear, I don’t climb very high grades, but I have had the immense satisfaction of walking up to a new area, picking a new line, and finding a way up it. This is just not available with bolts. You should try it sometime.

    Having said that, if bolts are necessary in a line, and I’m going to put it up, then it will be bolted, with glue-ins, (stainless Hex heads) and if lower offs are required, then I’ll use ring bolts. But don’t worry, I’m not planning on doing this in any of the quarries in this lifetime, so go for it.

    Cheers,

    Toc.

    #1979 Reply
    Diane
    Member

    In reply to Jamie- I have come across the ‘two bolts requiring hangers’ system of loweroffs at Wungong, I believe on Dead Seal?? Top of the first pitch.

    I’ve also seen many places with ONE lower-off which we all know is ridiculously unsafe- this used to be the case on Morning Glory at Statham’s (big thanks to Ross for fixing this!!) and also on Hang Ten at Mountain Quarry (maybe fixed now??).

    I’d love to know how to descend safely from such climbs- obviously it is done, but HOW??? Top out (on not-so-safe choss) and walk off?

    #1980 Reply
    Toc
    Member

    Hi Diane,

    About “Dead Seal”. It’s been up for a long time, (16 years), and I’m absolutely sure the first pitch belay bolts were never intended as a lower off. Possibly the way to look at it is to consider “Dead Seal” to be a two pitch climb, as it was originally put up. What some people do, is put an abseil line in about the middle of the slabs, further up, use it all day and one person takes it down at the end of the climbing session. We often do the same at Cuthbert.

    Cheers,

    Toc.

    #1981 Reply
    Neil
    Member

    Yeah – don’t confuse a 2 bolt belay for a lower-off. As for hang ten – use the next bolt down as the 2nd lower-off bolt or top out if you can. Fun Love and Joy is a good exmaple of this trick – the “lower-off” is a single bolt, but by reaching down you can thread your rope through the 2nd last bolt and hence lower down unequally from 2 bolts.

    #1982 Reply
    Jamie
    Member

    i’ve often used the abseil line in the middle of the crag as Toc suggests…

    nice and convientient if your there for an extended period..

    i was asking about the loweroffs as i have always topped out and havent come across loweroffs in perth..

    #1983 Reply
    Ross
    Member

    Re: Wungong – there are ring bolt loweroffs at the top of every first pitch (since 2002), no need to use the old central abseil line. However the second pitch of Dead Seal has carrots for belay. This is an artifact from past days (80s) when ring bolts were not available here.

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