This topic contains 22 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by Dena 3 years, 11 months ago.
May 1, 2013 at 10:20 am #95047
We have just been to Peak Charles and noticed that there are some shiny new’ish looking fixed hangers on the first half of Juluka’s first pitch, which then traverse right across the face towards the belay of Last Tango in Widiemooltha. The bolts on the Juluka pitch, which is what we climbed are all next to bomber trad gear placements – and no we didn’t clip the bolts. So is whoever it was that wasn’t bold enough to lead this classic three star trad climb established in the 1990 and well documented in guidebooks on trad bold enough to state who they were and have you read the bolting ethics section on this website?May 1, 2013 at 10:39 am #95049
In response to Krish’s post, I was with him when he discovered this incident on Monday. I led the first pitch of Jaluka where these bolts have been placed. I placed extremely bomber gear adjacent to all the fixed hangers with no difficulty. The choice of gear placement right the way up this early part of the first pitch was better than most TRADITIONAL climbs that we could ever hope to ascend.
The fixed hangers which Krish has pointed out actually stopped on this route exactly where the potential to place trad gear became sketchy and the run-outs got a little more nervy, despite the ease of climbing.
If the people/person who fixed these hangers do identify themselves would you kindly explain what on earth you were thinking when you did this.May 1, 2013 at 5:48 pm #95159
this was raised a few posts below. We were there over easter but omitted to take a spanner to remove the hangers. At some stage they should be removed. And soon , to discourage further bolting of natural lines.
Ethics are defined by whoever has the most stamina.May 1, 2013 at 5:50 pm #95161
Probably the same people who retro bolted Scott camps’ line at peak head. Same bolts.May 7, 2013 at 6:22 pm #96904
FYI the PC bolter is NOT the same person who did Peak Head. I don’t know who did do the Jaluka bolts, but suggesting it is the same person simply because the bolts are the same is bullshit. Why don’t you use your real name when making accusations Numbat’s Mum? Oh, that’s right, you need some balls to do that.May 7, 2013 at 6:54 pm #96911
There’s a difference between retro bolting a half-forgotten death-route and bolting a big fat crack system with long established and often reapeated natural climbs.May 7, 2013 at 8:00 pm #96931
So you gym climbing bottom feeders think this is ok?
I think you are the ones lacking balls for being happy to clip bolts on some retro bolted route. Death climb or not ethics are ethics and you lot are just as bad as the bolters.
Not every line needs bolting just so wanna be CAWA bumblies can clip and shake their way up it. ooooh !
Do you know who retrobolted at Peak Head Ang ??? Clipping the bolts is just as bad as retrobolting it.
Why can’t they put their name to the piss weak effort they call a new route ???
There is plenty of rock out there in WA on the south coast for new routes. You just need to be smarter than a dead fish to find it. No need to retro at such special places as Peak Head and Peak Charles just to get your name on the internet or please so CAWA top ropers.
Both actions are by a bunch of cowards as no one wants to put their name to either.
Ang says “Well done and thanks Tim.”
Nice of you to support and encourage a bunch of retrobolters.May 8, 2013 at 6:51 am #97088
so if you don’t like them stop whinging and chop them. Bolts aren’t goning to fall out because you’re emotionally incontinent.May 13, 2013 at 10:03 pm #98904
Scottys line on peak head is not half forgotten by local Albany climbers.his balls to the wall ground up style set the bar high for us and he has our total respect.walk past his line now and you will see a line of retro bolts.heartbreaking.we are not just whinging Jim nevin has been trying to contact scott for a course of action but has had no luck.if anyone can help find him that would be great.we try not to do anything without first contacting who put it up.failing that there are a couple of angry locals ready to chop.May 14, 2013 at 7:10 am #99081
bolters are acting on their vision as are those who chop the bolts. The most committed prevail (not necessary to be angry)May 14, 2013 at 7:36 am #99090
How many routes have you bolted Hammond ?May 14, 2013 at 9:45 am #99127
Only 2 bolted 3 chopped. chopping was easier.May 14, 2013 at 3:59 pm #99226
For those who want to contact Scott Camps…May 14, 2013 at 9:21 pm #99322
I seem to remember bringing the retro bolting thing up years ago. I was told by other climbers at the time such things as “its just a quarry”, “its a dangerous run out/route”, “it could use a couple of bolts to make it flow” (wtf!) etc…A few others voiced concern but most sat back in silence and some were openly against me. Told you it was the thin end of the wedge, you reap what you sow.May 15, 2013 at 4:34 pm #99722
Brother Geoff come to reproach us for our sins
ok I had quite a clear, well written response from the FA, Scott Camps. When I get home I’ll post it on the other thread, http://www.climberswa.asn.au/topic/new-route-at-peak-head/May 24, 2013 at 4:33 pm #104192
Firstly Hammond it is Jeff, not Geoff, if you are going to take the piss out of me for my stance you can at least spell my name correctly. Secondly no there is no difference, alluding to your prevoius comment ” There’s a difference between retro bolting a half-forgotten death-route and bolting a big fat crack system with long established and often reapeated natural climbs”, unless you have the first ascentionist’s permission it is all retro bolting.May 27, 2013 at 5:52 pm #105590
Im VERY new to climbing so I’m not familiar with either the ethics or customs associated with climbing.
But i cant see an issue with having a route used by both Trad and sport climbers. Not everyone one has a Rack for trad climbing.
So other than “that’s that way we always did it”, what’s the issues here?
Does the placement of the bolts actually hamper trad climbers, or endanger them in some way?July 8, 2013 at 11:49 am #107681
In response to the question ‘does the placement of the bolts actually hamper trad climbers, or endanger them in some way’: Trad climbing is about ground up ascents, not dogging routes and the sense of adventure and being out there in the environment. Success on trad routes is for most 90% mental and 10% physical ability – many people backing off because of doubt about their gear placements more than their ability to do the moves. Sport climbing is much more about the climber’s physical ability. Often routes are practiced by top roping or hanging between moves to figure out the next moves and aiming for that red or pink point. It is more about your ability to make the next clip and there is often blind faith that the bolts will hold.
So yes retro-bolting a trad route makes a big difference. It completely changes the climbers mental state by providing an escape option for when you are feeling uncomfortable – just clip the bolt and feel safe. I would like to think that this in part is why CAWA have a Code of Bolting and New Route Development (http://www.climberswa.asn.au/cawa/cawa-code-of-bolting-and-new-route-development/), which very clearly identifies the association’s position. Yet I have not yet seen CAWA take an official stand on the situations that have been under discussion in this and similar threads.
I feel that Scott Camps response to the Peak Head saga (http://www.climberswa.asn.au/topic/new-route-at-peak-head/) and the retro-bolting at Peak Charles and Wilyabrup should be sufficient call for CAWA to make their position known before these threads get out of hand. If CAWA do not want to make an official statement then why have the code or is the silence indicating CAWA feel there is a need to review the code?July 8, 2013 at 4:21 pm #107692
I’m heading to Peak Charles tomorrow. Will chat to the lads and see if we can take some equipment to remove the offending bolts.July 8, 2013 at 4:42 pm #107693
Nice work James 🙂July 16, 2013 at 3:44 pm #107865
Krish – just curious as to why you think it is necessary for CAWA to make an official statement?. You have acknowledged that they have established a Code of Bolting and New Route Development “which very clearly identifies the association’s position”. As CAWA are not here for the purpose of removing bolts, but to promote responsability within the climbing community i would say that is a good stance already
If these guys have retrobolted an existing line then the bolts need to be pulled out (carefully- by someone who knows what they are doing), end of story!. No need to get Jeff M stroking his beard about some hot air that was spouted back in the day.
we accept these actions when we do nothing about them.July 18, 2013 at 10:24 am #107888
Codes of conduct are developed based on sound reasoning and over time people have a tendency to become unaware or ignore them. My thinking was: Firstly to attempt to cut short these threads before they become such long winded and heated (verging on abusive) discussions that do little for the reputation of the climbing community. Secondly provide a simply reference to the associations existing position to keep making people aware of it, especially people new to the area or climbing (such as Squeak).October 12, 2014 at 12:33 pm #149320
The hangers were still in place on Juluka at Easter this year. I would have removed them but didn’t have a spanner handy.
Krish is right about people either being unaware or ignoring codes. Having said that, anyone new to bolting should be seeking out this information. The codes were reviewed and updated in 2009. A considerable amount of work went into this and there is nothing to add to them at this time.
The forum is intended for productive discussion and to disseminate information. It is not for personal attacks and grandstanding.
As Mark W (webmaster) and I have both said previously, we post using our names because we are not embarrassed or ashamed by what we have to say. If you have to hide behind a pseudonym, then you aren’t even backing your own, usually offensive comments. Abusive comments only serve to shut down what could have otherwise been a useful thread. And they do nothing for the credibility of the climbing community as a whole.