New Crag: Dreaming Frog Rock

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This topic contains 28 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by  Chris 1 year, 9 months ago.

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  • #156720 Reply

    Marc Papain

    Hi All,

    I have a host of new delights for you. Full details here:

    Still lots of potential new routes in the 10-15 grade space, and in the 25+ space. Plus a load of untapped bouldering potential.

    Can’t wait to see what else others put up here! So psyched! It’s like a kids playground it’s so amazing.


    #156722 Reply


    If anyone does further development here and needs bolts, I have about 6 stainless steel expansion bolts and fixed hangers left over, available for sale!

    #156814 Reply


    Hi. Nice crag fun routes well done.

    FYI the detached flake at the top of the Granery on the 17R bit came off with only slight encouragement. I am glad this didn’t happen when someone was climbing it. It is still climbable. Same grade more or less just no opportunity for cams past the crux.

    4 very experienced people climbed these routes and all highly recommend you add a bolt to protect the ledge fall. It is hard to understand the way the route is given the bolts on the other routes.

    #156815 Reply


    Also, please fix up the single bolt belays on most of the boulders. One bolt to belay / abseil from is not really accepted anywhere in the world and I am pretty sure is not per the CAWA code of ethics.

    Also, if I could kindly ask what sort of expansion bolts did you use ?
    Bolt head size implies something not quiet right. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
    10mm bolts use 17mm bolt heads…. yours are 13mm….

    Sorry if I sounds like the bolt police.

    #156816 Reply

    Marc Papain

    Hi Neil, thanks for the feedback! Glad to see others getting on these and also good to get your thoughts.

    First/Second Harvest
    I was in two minds about this but thought it was safe enough. If you all thought an extra bolt should be put in I’ll roll with that. Happy to add one in next time I’m there.

    Kangaroo Graveyard
    Did you guys climb Kangaroo Graveyard? What do you think about the first bolt? Once you’re on it I really felt like the current first bolt was sufficient, but can see that not everyone would feel the same. Be keen to get your thoughts?

    Single Bolt Belays
    Kangaroo Graveyard, Critter Country, Winnie, and Winter is Coming can all be backed up with cams for belaying, then I figured the single bolt would be okay to abseil off. What would your thoughts be on these?

    First/Second Harvest, Aztec, and From The Ashes I think should get second bolts at the the top, given the height and lack of any other protection. Will add these in next time I’m there.

    Riding the Header, Piglet’s Picnic Feast and TTNF are all relatively short and I thought the single bolt belays were sufficient. What do you think?

    These are all 10mm x 75mm expansion bolts, which I read was sufficient in most cases. They all felt pretty bomber and I’d be happy on climbing on all these in this setting.

    How did you guys go with Steve the landowner? I’m keen to see how we go with him and access moving forward. I he’s a great guy and as long as we’re all respectful it will be fine.


    #156818 Reply


    Thanks Mark.
    Steve was good. All worked out well.

    We didn’t climb kangaroo graveyard.

    Harvest routes do need a bolt. Put it so you can clip it from the ledge. It would be a horrid fall onto the ledge without something and it’s a shame as they are great routes.

    One bolt belay and trad backup is all good. But one bolt belays or one bolt rap anchors are a no-no for sure even on short routes….

    Were the bolts trubolt style (with a 10mm shaft) or 10mm sleeve anchors with an 8mm shaft?

    Not trying to cause trouble – I just want to be sure after some of the bolting problems down south.

    Apologies, I am not implying you did anything wrong.

    We will try the projects next time as they look doable especially the Granery one. We stayed off it as you had obviously put some work into cleaning it and we weren’t sure if it was ‘open’.

    Anyway, once again thanks for a good crag.

    #156819 Reply


    Glad it went well with Steve.

    They’re Dynabolts, 10mm including sleeve.

    Nothing there is ‘closed’. I was really tempted by the Means Of Production Project and Sunshine Project, but better to leave to someone who can knock them over faster than I could. Didn’t want to close something then take ages projecting it when many others could knock it down in a few sessions.

    #156859 Reply


    Hi Marc,

    Nice find! Went out there on the weekend and did a few routes. Nice drive along Brookton Highway and with the recent rain it’s starting to green up out that way and it’s a pretty spot to spend the day.

    Spoke to Steve and he seems like a very friendly guy and was very helpful.

    However I agree with Neil that the bolting and in particular the belay anchors are not really up to scratch.

    If they are 8 mm bolts with a 10 mm sleeve, I don’t think that is adequate for protection and a single one is certainly not adequate for a belay anchor or rap point. The thin (6 mm?) maillons are a bit on the thin side as well. I think a big seconder fall might see both the belayer and the seconder on the ground.

    These days there shouldn’t be any routes with an ‘X’ or an ‘R’ on them. There is still a lot of loose crap and green lichen on the rock and even if one is comfortable at the grade, there is still the strong possibility of rock flaking off or stepping on wet and slimy green stuff. With the first bolt at about 6 m, Kangaroo Graveyard could easily become Climber Graveyard. And Birth Canal – a 15 m grade 16 ‘Trad’ climb with zero protection? A body-jam doesn’t really count.

    Some of the bolts are also not placed in that good a location. The first bolt on TTFN results in the quickdraw going over the hold, making it hard to get to for the seconder.

    Sorry about the complaining, but I want to climb safe and a lot of the climbs at DF I didn’t and won’t do until there is adequate protection and safe belay anchors.


    #156860 Reply

    Ross Weiter

    10mm Dynabolts provide for only 6mm of bar cross section. (10mm sleeve containing 8mm bar, minus two times 1mm for thread = 6mm). This is equivalent to the old “quarter inch” bolt (6.35mm). This is generally considered not strong enough and is generally not used for climbing anchors these days. Note that Trubolts (or other expansion bolts without full length sleeve) are different as they have no sleeve at the top (where shear applies). So 10mm Trubolt minus two times 1mm thread provides for 8mm bar cross section (same as 12mm dynabolt).

    Theory: Assuming 45ksi shear strength (311MPa) which I understand is common for stainless steel, using some maths I get these shear strength values below. I believe 20kN is what climbing gear should be rated for but a bolt will not experience pure shear but rather a combo of shear and tension (and it is much stronger in tension) so situation is a bit more complicated. But anyway:
    6mm unthreaded bar (or 8mm bar with 1mm thread): 9kN (10mm dynabolt, too weak imho)
    8mm unthreaded bar (or 10mm bar with 1mm thread): : 16kN borderline (eg 12mm dynabolt, 10mm trubolt)
    10mm unthreaded bar (or 12mm bar with 1mm thread): : 24kN OK (eg 10mm glued in machine bolt)

    This source gives 18kN for M10 bolts as opposed to the 24 calculated by me which I am finding a bit puzzling…..but it means that possibly my values are too high (or they apply to a fully threaded bolt).

    So, in conclusion I suggest that 10mm Dynabolts are not used since (1) they are not in common use and (2) shear strength rating is too low.

    #156861 Reply

    Marc Papain

    Hi Guys,

    Appreciate all the feedback, and glad you like the new crag! It’s a really great drive this time of year like you mentioned, and the setting is really nice. It makes for a good camping spot too with a good fire going.

    Additional Bolts
    Will add an extra bolt on First/Second Harvest for the top section, and an extra first bolt on Kangaroo Graveyard. Both of these I had an inkling people would request the additional bolts but I thought I’d wait and get more opinions. Glad to have yours and duly noted. I kind of liked the excitement of the ending to First/Second Harvest, with it being all trad and the end unprotected, which is how it’s first three ascents were done (and I’m assuming yours too). But understand that not everyone has the same appetite for risk and that an extra bolt will make it more friendly.

    Birth Canal I personally think a lot of people would feel really safe in. Did any of you actually get in it? Once you’re in there it’s pretty comfortable. I know 6 people so far who have climbed it without a belay quite happily.

    Belay Anchors
    It’s my intention to add a second belay bolt to Out of The Ashes, Aztec, Birth Canal and First/Second Harvest.

    I’m pretty sure the maillons I was using were 8mm, but will double check.

    Bolt Type
    Will switch to 10mm Trubolts for the additions above. I have stock of the 10mm Dynabolts which I was going to use for this purpose, but will have to wait a couple of months to save for the additional Trubolts. New baby about to arrive so tight on money right now. Sounds like it’s better to wait though and use the more appropriate bolts, rather than get bolts in now but they not be ideal.

    #156865 Reply


    As money may be an issue (and I fully understand that in these times and with kids coming) The Hangout is more than happy to donate some bolts for fixing any that should be fixed. I am not too familiar with Trubolts but can acess Fixe expanson and double expansion bolts and am more than happy to get them in (or fund Trubolts if prefered) for anyone who is willing to put in the sweat fixing any required additions or replacements.

    #156866 Reply


    Marc, I will give you the bolts for free to fix it up.
    10mm FIXE trubolts. You can provide the hangers.

    Or I will just add them (belay bolts) when I am there next if it is not done and that is ok with you ?
    BYO maillon or leaver bina…. I am not made of $$$ either. The maillons I saw were all 8mm.
    Or if someone wants to donate some re500 I will put in P bolts. I have lots of them spare, but I used all my re500.

    Lets agree no more 10mm sleeve anchors (with 8mm shafts….). The actual calculated strengths will be less than Ross’s numbers when you account for initial tightening and normal failure mode which is bending. To bend they only needs 1-2mm to move due to crushing the rock on the outside edge. If you bash away with a hammer or crowbar you will see this mechanism of failure before your eyes !

    I put a second bolt at the top of the Harvest above the Harvest routes. Yes we climbed it ground up.

    We did Birth Canal. It is fine to wiggle up the inside with no gear. It’s pretty obvious what the pro is going to be like….. Climbing up the outside edge is the real line though. We did it on TR. 2 or 3 bolts would make it a good route 😉

    If you need any tips on bolting give me a ring. There are a few tricks worth being aware of with expansions.

    #156867 Reply


    Or use Gareth’s bolts 😉

    Trubolts = Fixe style double expansions

    #156868 Reply

    Marc Papain

    Hi Gareth,

    That’s very kind of you! I’ll be out there this Sunday so could put in some of the additional bolts/lower offs if you wanted to throw in. How many were you thinking?

    #156869 Reply

    Marc Papain

    Also I’ve just texted you Neil 🙂

    #156870 Reply


    I soloed Birth Canal by going right in (as per the description) and had no issues with it. If anything taking trad gear or bolting would make it (even more) awkward, squeezing and scraping your gear. The outside edges would make a funky sport route though, as Neil mentioned.
    Enough said re more loweroffs and bolts.
    I really liked the 18 trad Winnie. Some cool moves and the gear placement is mostly small but adequate, excellent fun to place, totally deserves the 2 stars. Aztec is a fine line, worth the effort. Any chance of some loweroffs on Scared of Huffalumps? I’m scared of huffathumps from simul-lowering with no gear. The top looks interesting too, a nice overhanging crack.

    #156871 Reply

    Marc Papain

    haha. Scared of Huffalumps is the last ditch cowardly escape out left, and isn’t really a great route in itself, thus why no lower offs. Someone needs to finish it “properly”, going up through that overhanging finishing crack, but I broke off a crucial hold for doing it without crack technique, so I’ll leave it for someone better at that style than me.

    Glad you liked Winnie, it’s a favorite for me along with Aztec. Winnie probably took the most cleaning of anything there, along with Winter is Coming – about 4 hours each of meditative scrubbing by myself in the breeze, mostly in the dark by headlamp!

    I can imagine you liking Birth Canal Ang. Nice and gritty! haha. It’s even better when it has the corresponding commentary being yelled out, in line with the name.

    Will be adding the suggested additional bolts on Kangaroo Graveyard and First/Second Harvest to make them more ‘friendly’. Will also add additional lower offs on Out of The Ashes, Aztec, Birth Canal and First/Second Harvest, where it was always my intention to do so due to the height and lack of additional gear placements, but never got around to doing due to procrastination, time/money constraints.

    Thanks for the feedback Ang, sounds like you had a fun day out 🙂

    #156873 Reply


    Hi Marc

    Happy to add as many as needed to make what is already done safer. They will need to be ordered in, let me know how many you think will suffice and I will add them to my order this week (will take a couple of weeks to get them in) and I will add extra and start stocking them.

    Neil : So they are one and the same, the supplier has them marked as lots in stock, so am happy to replace any you pass on to Marc for the purpose of repair of done routes. If you would like a donation of / for RE500, I am happy to cover an invoice for a couple of tubes(or however many are needed to fix already bolted lines), pop in for a climb and I’ll swap you cash for invoice.


    #156874 Reply

    Marc Papain

    What I can do in short term
    I was only planning on adding a second belay bolt on 4 of these routes, which are over 6m and don’t have easy trad back ups (Out of the Ashes, Aztec, Birth Canal, First/Second Harvest).

    I can add these 4 on Sunday, as well as an additional BR on Kangaroo Graveyard and First/Second Harvest – so total 6 bolts.

    Will liase with Neil about getting them for this weekend if you can restock him after.

    There are 27 bolts there currently, across 11-14 routes (some share anchors).
    It would take an extra 11 bolts+maillons to make all of these double bolt belays.

    Many of these may be okay as is, as they aren’t likely to take any big falls, but happy to take guidance from those who know more.

    Happy to work away at replacing any of these that might be higher risk, but will take a few weekends and won’t happen overnight.

    I’ll put up notes on The Crag guide tomorrow to let any punters know what they’re climbing on so they can be informed when heading out in the meantime.

    #156893 Reply


    Anyone else heading out to DF this Sunday? I’d like to have a chew on the top section of Scared of Huffalumps and see if I can justify some loweroffs for this route. Will be taking scabby old nuts and dodgy no-name cams as leavers to get off, lol!

    #156899 Reply

    Marc Papain

    Ang and I will be out there 8am – 4pm if anyone else is keen to head out.

    I’m aiming to make KG, Ashes, Aztec, Birth Canal, Critter Country and First/Second harvest double bolt belays while I’m there. As well as add an extra climbing bolt to KG and First/Second Harvest. Neil I think is lending me 8 Trubolts for these until Gareth gets some in.

    I think there’s also a group of 10-15 boulderers who will be there establishing boulder routes too.

    Should be a great day!

    #156941 Reply


    Hi Marc, looks like I should have bolted the outside of birth canal a couple of weeks ago, told you it’d be a great line. How did it go Neil?
    Cheers Shannon

    #157007 Reply

    Marc Papain

    FYI –

    — Additional Bolting —
    Steve the landowner has aired concern about additional bolting here. It may still be fine but better to air on the side of caution to maintain the good relationship. Speak to him to discuss before placing bolts, and maybe offer to meet him there to show him what you’re planning if that’s of interest to him. His contact details are in the Access section on The Crag listing.

    — Parking —
    He’s reported people parking on the roadside and is unhappy about this. Please park inside the gate as discussed in the Access section on The Crag listing.

    Does anyone know where I could maybe get a cheap sign made to this effect, to offer him to put up?

    #157033 Reply


    Winnie Rock

    Apollo Ape 12m, 22 ***
    Some of the best moves at the crag! Ape your way up the right side of the arete near Meet the Heffalumps. Mantle with style onto the hanging slab. Slap over the final bulge and wow, that was a fun route !! Stick clip first bolt. 4FH to DBB.
    Neil Gledhill, Kate Swain, May 2016

    The Granery

    Possum Something, 15m, 18 or 23
    aka Means of Production Project. Right of First Harvest, starting at the detached pinnacle. Chimney up inside the detached pinnacle then wobble across to a rest. Place gear in the crack(s) to the left and above with care and good balance. Requires small cams and finesse. Then either blast up the cracks direct, where placing a crucial blue alien is the crux (23+). Take care as falling without good gear could be uncomfortable. Or…. for a nice grade 18, traverse right to stand on top of the pinnacle where you can just reach the break which allows you to go back left where the direct (23+) joins. Punch out a few glory laybacks to the summit and DBB.
    Kate Swain, Neil Gledhill, May 2016

    #157034 Reply

    Marc Papain

    Nice work! Can’t wait to try these out!

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