Re-bolting of “Morning Glory” at Stathams

Home Forum Bolting Re-bolting of “Morning Glory” at Stathams

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  • #3114 Reply

    Glenn

    I am not sure if CAWA keeps a database of rebolted routes….We replaced the original rusted mild steel carrots over the weekend as follows:

    Climb: “Morning Glory” at Stathams

    Bolts Replaced: 2,3,4,5 (numbered ground up)

    Replacement Date: 27/9/2005

    Bolt Type: Ramset M10, 120mm Stainless Steel Studs

    Glue: Ramset Maxima Epoxy Glue

    Notes: Hangers to be added in the next week or so.

    Installer: Glenn Sharrock

    Cost: $48

    #3115 Reply

    Face

    Fantastic Glenn!

    Did you have the first accentionists’ permission??

    Very touchy subject this one.

    #3116 Reply

    Wombat

    120mm !

    Don’t you trust your own gluing ??

    FA’s don’t generally need contacting if replacing bolts like for like IMO. Hardly a sensitive issue in WA.

    #3117 Reply

    Numbat

    I’m surprised that anyone would bother re-bolting that climb – there are others in much more need for rebolting.

    Also, did you get the first ascensionists permission to rebolt? If it were me, I’d be pretty pissed of if you didn’t ask first.

    Finally, is there any need to put fixed hangers on a grade 18 climb where carrots have served fine? Sure, the bolts probably need to be replaced sometime as they are only galvanised steel. But it’s not such a desperate climb that fixed hangers are needed. The bolts are reasonably well placed and unless you are a 3 footed midget, bolt plates can be easily placed (maybe not Bolt #1, which is a bit fat…) and I think fixed hangers on a lot of climbs are a bit of a waste of money and despoil the rock. But at least it won’t be as bad as the incredibly ugly ring bolts that someone put all over Lama Rock.

    #3118 Reply

    Kris

    Numbat,

    Disagree. Just because it is only an 18 doesn’t mean it is not deserving of fixed hangers. There are heaps and heaps of climbers out there that can only manage climbs around this grade and hangers can give them a bit more confidence.

    Easy climbs are just as important as hard climbs. If you only bolted hard climbs buggar all climbers would actually be climbing!

    Wicked

    #3119 Reply

    Kris

    One more thing………LONG LIVE THE RING BOLT!!

    Look forward to seeing more of them!!

    #3120 Reply

    Saber-toothed poteroo

    Speaking from the point of view of someone who can only just manage the grade, there are some nice places to stand when you’re at the bolts… the only prob. was the first bolt – a bit too chubby for my bolt plates! Horses for courses I think. And the only prob. with the ring bolts at Llama Rock are the ones on the skyline – not so pretty.

    And Kris, you have lots of people in Spain who agree with you..I’m sure they think we’re crazy over here (maybe we are!)

    And one more thing…I thought numbats were supposed to be timid creatures…

    #3121 Reply

    richard

    As the above was rebolting done by a CAWA committee member I would point out the following from the CAWA Bolting Ethics;

    “Bolts must be visually unobtrusive, especially in areas visited by the non-climbing public. The installer must strive to use the least conspicuous method of bolting and installation and minimise the number of bolts.”

    Regardless of non-CAWA opinion the above is what we’re about, and it is disappointing that our committee did not “strive to use the least conspicuous method of bolting” which would have been hex head glue-ins.

    #3122 Reply

    Kris

    Richard,

    In who’s opinion are hex bolts considered the least obtrusive?

    Isn’t Stathams Quarry a man made crag that in itself is visually obtrusive?

    Who goes to the quarry….Drunks, addicts, climbers and people with an obsession for throwing old T.V’s from the top??

    Surely these peolple couldn’t give a rats if the bolts are obtrusive or not

    #3123 Reply

    Ben

    Heya,

    Statham’s is a quarry so is the need to keep the bolts unobtrusive for the viewing public, which is limited at a redundant quarry, so important? Obviously we don’t want to go bolting everything within arms length and there is still an aesthetic value at the quarries but not to the extent as the ‘natural rock’ which is viewed by the non-climbing public.

    Is a climb graded with clipping bolts and placing hangers in mind? If so, does it matter whether they be ringbolts, fixed hangers or hex bolts?

    As for the FA’s consent. Hmmm, which is more important; people’s safety or one (or a few) persons pride? Sure, ask the FA’s consent if you can but the safety of the climb must be paramount and any FA being asked to have their climb re-bolted should understand this. A re-bolt, after all, is (or should be) required to replace unsafe bolts, not to make the climb easier.

    Just a few questions I think are worth the discussion.

    Cheers

    #3124 Reply

    Wombat

    I thought it was a strange choice for rebolting too. There are many worse climbs out there where re-bolting would be more beneficial.

    Carrots are perfectly suitable for that sort of rock and that angle. P-bolts are no guarantee for safety. I have seen just as many carrots fall out as P-bolts – and both types fall out more than you think they would !

    Don’t confuse re-bolting with retrobolting.

    #3125 Reply

    Chill Out

    Good on you Glenn,

    Nice to see somebody taking a bit of initiative rather than thes moaning bloody minnies who exist to complain. If the FA cared that much they’d have rebolted it themselves anyway.

    I’m sure replacing bolts on an eyesore of a quarry won’t attract a mob of Greenpeace campiagners to your door. My goodness this crowd that are complaing are probably driving about in V8 spewing carbon into the air!!

    Stop being so anal!

    Dream On…..

    #3126 Reply

    Numbat

    A few comments –

    Retro- vs. Rebolting. To me, rebolting is putting the same or similar back in – hex head stainless to replace galvanised. Fixed hangers in place of carrots is retrobolting.

    Quarries – these are now often not just a place for drunks, druggies and climbers. Many are now a part of CALM-managed regional parks or even national parks. They are now visited by hikers, picnickers, MTBers, families etc etc. Although CALM happily damages rock – both natural and artificial – I’d be pretty sure that they would be pissed off if others do it.

    Certainly quarries are artificial rock faces and I don’t actually care that much if someone does chip or put ugly ringbolts in them. But the point is that retrobolting (as against rebolting) should be discussed – particularly with the first ascensionist.

    In the case of natural rock, ringbolts are often far too conspicuous and unsightly, particularly as in the case at Lama Rock.

    Regarding Richard’s comments about the CAWA bolting ethics, I agree with the extract that he put up. However I’m pretty sure that the MG re/retro(?)bolting was not CAWA Committee approved. In the recent issue of ‘Western Climber’, there was something about rebolting and it said that only stainless hex glue-ins would be used unless necessary. Fixed hangers on an 18 are usually not necessary and having climbed MG I don’t see the need.

    If it is too hard for you Kris, then go back to the plywood and plastic. What’s next? Ring bolts on Pink Knickers?

    Don’t slap the route dude if you’re shaky at the grade.

    #3127 Reply

    richard

    My point was that Glenn is listed on this site as a Cawa committee member. If he’s resigned then he’s free to follow his inclinations. If not then this is a committee action. And the question to the Chairman is, why is the Cawa committee not following the Cawa bolting guidelines (Also published on this site).

    #3128 Reply

    Toc

    Just a couple of things I should say.

    One: The first ascensionist is somewhere else, probably the US, possibly Switzerland. Very hard to find. I did speak to someone who knew him last night and was told that it is very unlikely he would object.

    Two: Glenn didn’t retro-bolt the line in that only the bolts that were there, were replaced.

    Three: I’m not commenting on the choice of fixed hangers. There are going to be arguements both ways, but in any case, Glenn resigned from the committee due to work commitments early in the year.

    Four: 75mm (max) hammered in carrots, (in quarried rock, one fat), have been replaced by glue ins 50mm longer.

    Five: If Glenn is strong enough, and I think he is, it’s great to see lively debate.

    Cheers all,

    Toc Foale (CAWA chairperson)

    #3129 Reply

    Glenn

    Greets All:

    I resigned from the CAWA committee some time ago, but even so I dont think there is a contradiction here. The bolting standard I used is widely accepted and has been tested in the field and in the laboratory. In fact, it is one of the standards presented by safer cliffs australia, and is widely used in Australia.

    However I would advance the following comment in response to the questions and criticism advanced (which I am more than happy to discuss): My reasoning is as follows:

    1. Rebolting in original style.

    The original bolts were 50mm long mild steel, ground down to 5mm thick behind the bolt head -. No glue, they were corroded and even in their new state, they should be considered inadequate for rock climbing. The bolts pulled out smoothly under body weight on a short bar. Its obvious that this style is inadequate; as proven by the fact that such bolts are being replaced all over Australia with either glue-in-threaded- bar type bolts, P-bolts, or glue in carrots. For these reasons I don’t regard the “original style” as a valid replacement option.

    On the issue of glue in machine bolts, to my knowledge there is no data on the performance of glue in carrots. Based on my 10 years of experience with glue in bolts in the mining industry, my opinion is that glue in carrots will have a much lower pull out strength than threaded bar since with GIC the threaded length is only around 40mm (grinding a pattern into the bolt surface has problems which I wont go into). If anyone can show me load tests on glue in carrots with (40mm of embedded thread) then I would be interested to see them, but until I do I am not placing these bolts. In my opinion these bolts might have a substantially lower safe working load than fully threaded glue in bars – that’s enough for me until I see some actual tests.

    One standard bolting system adopted by Safer Cliffs Australia is 100mm Threaded Bar with dynamically rated glue. This system has been extensive tested and has a safe working load. This system has been in laboratory tested for rock climbing. I have a dozen or so articles on load testing of bolts if anyone is really interested in the technical specs !! If anyone thinks this is overkill then you should go away and investigate the manufactures load transfer curves and compare this against the dynamic loads generated in a fall…..

    2. Why re-bolt that particular climb

    I simply want to climb it! No other reason is required. If you have a climb you would like re-bolted do it yourself!!! (or better still ask CAWA to do it so that it is done properly !!! ).

    3. Hangers:

    As anyone whom has done this climb would know – it already has a hanger on bolt number 4 and also 2 ring bolts at the top ! Also, considering the fact that the quarry has been altered for climbing with shotcrete, blasting, scaling, large concreted-in poles at the top, and is covered in hangers on other climb, I don’t thinks a few more hangers are an issue…. In addition P-bolts or hangers are the accepted approach now in Australia. However I entirely respect and agree with the idea of minimal visual impact at natural cliffs!!

    4. Another controversial issue:

    At the risk of sounding inflammatory I would add that I removed the bash in carrots from Lifestyle-Refugees. These bolts pulled under body weight, and considering the huge run outs and poor quality of the rock I would suggest that this was an accident waiting to happen. I will replace these bolts shortly and I intend to ask to first ascentist if more bolts can be added. Any comments?

    #3130 Reply

    Kris

    Hi Numbat (Would be nice to know who you really are?)

    You miss the point completely! Just because you might be the next Chris Sharma or Ben Moon and find 18 grades easy and not worthy of bolts doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be bolted!

    There are far more climbers out there that find an 18 to be their limit for now and they have as much right to have a safely bolted climb as you do with your higher grade climbs!

    Don’t let your arrogance at being better than most climbers discriminate against them.

    Sweet.

    #3131 Reply

    Danny

    Numbat,

    Quote: “Don’t slap the route dude if you’re shaky at the grade.”

    And I thought a part of climbing was pushing yourself to new limits?

    You have some very interesting ideas and what a great place to express them.

    #3132 Reply

    My2cents

    Good work Glenn,

    If more people focused their energy on “doing” instead of whinging we’d all be better off, I’m sure all these negative comments are making you ask yourself why you bothered..

    As far as I’m aware Oz is the only place to use carrot bolts ?? In Europe etc all the common routes have FH or are Trad climbs, Keep up the good work, I’m sure youve considered the impact. Cheers

    #3133 Reply

    richard

    Well anything’s better than bashins. Still I don’t go along with the the-quarries-are-a-mess-lets-trash-them-anyway crowd. Where suitable (clips from a position where a climber is comfortably on balance) hex head bolts are the best, least obtrusive solution. Hangers should be reserved for difficult or strenuous clips.

    An advantage of hangers is the continuous thread along the stud allowing better adherence of the glue. It is possible to get hex bolts with full length thread which would give similar adhesion. Although this would not be desirable as the protruding section of the bolt where bending occurs should be smooth. A retort from the hanger side would be that with the hanger tightened against the rock there is no significant bending. The response would be that the bolt is then permanently under stress, which does it no harm (assuming no SSC concerns) but which will load the glue and surrounding rock. The oldest hangers I’ve seen (in hard sandstone) were all loose.

    A strong argument raised is that the hanger installation is done essentially according to an qualified procedure. While this is true, tests appear to be done a relatively short time after installation. Not after ten or fifteen years of thermal cycling. Further, it would seem reasonable to extrapolate the installation procedure from a threaded stud to a hex bolt with a long thread. Simple bending calcs on the protruding section should give sufficient confidence in the bolts strength. And the elimination of the permanent bolt stress imposed with hangers has got to be an improvement.

    In the short term hangers may be better than some alternatives. Certainly four of the five P-bolts I’ve removed came out with a crowbar under very moderate pressure. You can’t exert much while dangling on a rope. I take the point that if one cares so much then get out there and replace the hangers. But there are an awful lot of bashins to replace first.

    #3134 Reply

    Glenn

    Hi Richard (and everyone else)

    Thanks for your comments.

    I agree with you comments on the use of hex bolts with long thread lengths (say 80mm of thread and 20mm of threadless shank). I investigated this option and to date I have not been able to source such bolts – if you know of a source please let me know as this is a cheaper option. However, based on my calcs, I don’t believe 40mm of embedment is sufficient.

    On the matter of long-term effects of thermal stress, cyclic load etc on glue in bolts. I agree these are important issues and this is why I an arguing for longer bolts (as opposed to shorter bolts). It may be that 80mm of embedment is not enough over time, or they may require replacing. With a good drill it only takes 1 minute to drill a 90mm deep hole so even doubling the depth is no great burden (and does’nt impact on the visual appearance of the system). Cost is another issue….

    Please see below notes that came out of correspondence with others on the issue of fully threaded glue in carrots:

    RE: Hex Bolts

    I recently contact a couple of chaps over east who were involved an R & D project on bolt testing for RC – they are not aware of any testing on glue in carrots, but there is plenty of published work on threaded bars with different embedment lengths.

    I have investigated fully threaded 316 hex bolts. They are available but I dont think the thread at the collars will work with our bolt plates (ie it will catch and apply bending moment to bolt). Also these bolts have only 8mm of effective diameter at the collar, compared to 10mm for a full shank bolts). What we really need is “partially threaded” hex bolts (say 100mm long M10 bolts with 80mm of thread, and 20mm of shank).

    Some people roughen the surface of the hex bolt with an angle grinder; in my opinion this is non-ideal and besides potentially creating stress raisers, there will be a differential stiffness in bond which would create uneven load transfer along the axis of the bolt – break glue?

    ie fine thread = high stiffness,

    widely spaced ground holes = low stiffness

    Also, how to create a uniform pattern? Damage to bolt strength due to careless grinding. We should aim to have a repeatable, process that is quality controlled rather than depending on the skill of someone with an angle grinder.

    FYI: See load transfer graph for M10 threaded bar with Chemset 801 series.

    Summary:

    – threaded bar with 80mm of encapsulation: sigmaT = 10KN

    – carrot (glue in with 40mm of encap) sigmaT = 2KN

    “graph attached”

    #3135 Reply

    THE treasurer

    A small point, folks.

    That a CAWA member is on the committee does not necessarily imply that anything they do has committee knowledge let alone approval. Can’t recall any discussion on it at any committee meeting.

    And I would remember, I lead it by the skin of my teeth not so long ago, but before rebolting.

    Quite sobering really – oh, and Richard, I disagree with you on the visual impact of quarries, they are man made and therefore fair game for the hilti crew, existing climbs on natural gear notwithstanding, o’course.

    #3136 Reply

    Peter T

    No one (I think) answered Glenn’s question re Lifestyle Refugees, the run-out Gr 14 a few metres left of MG. If the bolts could be pulled out by hand, then good on you for replacing them.

    Should there be more bolts to make it safer? I think not. I have enjoyed this climb as a thought-provoking, careful exercise in controlled climbing. This is how the first ascensionist intended it, and this is how it should remain. I would urge all serious climbers to develop and take pride in an ability to lead “run-out” climbs, because if you don’t meet them in WA, you will surely encounter them elsewhere in Oz/the globe. But also it can be very satisfying – a whole new dimension to climbing, in which leading is actually a totally different kettle of fish from top-roping or leading a closely-spaced clip-up. So Glenn and others, please don’t over-sanitise our climbs, we need a variety of styles.

    #3137 Reply

    richard

    On your figures at beginning of life a stud has five times the pull-out strength of a 40mm thread, which is only 200kg? One may wonder if after a few years the pull-out strengths might not be comparable. The attraction with glue-in machine bolts is the benign nature of the service. For almost their entire lives they sit in an unstressed state, waiting for the once in a blue moon when someone falls. Hangers are tightened up, putting an outward force on the bolt. So day and night, rain and shine, the bolt puts stress on the glue and the rock. Eventually you’d think the glue will creep, or the glue or the rock will crack a little to relieve the stress, and the hanger will be a little lose and someone will tighten it up again. This may not be true in granite. Best would be a long hex bolt with a long thread.

    Modifying bolts I don’t think is a good idea. Hand roughening, the uncontrolled introduction of massive surface flaws, is one of the main objections to bashins. It’s not a fatigue situation, but the stress raisers introduced can not be good.

    Standard thread is 40. Nothing much else is easily available. Although you can have anything if you order in quantity. It might be worth looking into ordering a custom lot of 100 or so. SS is expensive anyway it shouldn’t be much more. I hope. It’d be a matter of finding enough people to share out the bolts. I take it 304 would be sufficient for inland locations?

    Is anyone interested in a part share of a custom lot of SS hex bolts?

    #3138 Reply

    Marianne

    Peter, I absolutely agree that climbs shouldn’t be overly sanitised – the climbs I have firmly etched in my mind as epics are the trad climbs I’ve led! The only point I would make about the 14 though is the lack of well-protected 14s around the place. I think it would actually add variety to the 14 grade if one was nicely protected!! (I’m thinking of the Mountain Quarry 14 near Playboy, which I couldn’t find much protection on)What seems to happen is the hard climbs get well-protected and the ‘easy’ climbs get left as near-solos. Please correct me if I’m wrong because there’s nothing I like better than spotting a well-protected 14 🙂

    So Glenn, I guess what I’m saying is I’m happy with some extra bolts (only if the FA doesn’t mind, of course)

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