This topic contains 66 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by rod 12 years, 11 months ago.
October 4, 2005 at 12:00 am #3164
I may not be a wombat but i believe there is NEVER a situation where carrots are suitable….not today. We might as well go back to using pitons.
Aren’t carrots just a glorified version of pitons??October 4, 2005 at 12:00 am #3165
Yes, a carrot is a glorified piton, just like a Bunning’s ladder is a glorified P-bolt.
Without pitons, most of the world’s great climbs would not have been done in the 60’s and 70’s. We would have had to waited until Kris turned up with his Bunning’s ladder!
Long live the Lost Arrow!October 4, 2005 at 12:00 am #3166
Ah, wanking. Someone once said said that you either admit to having done it or you are still doing it.
Now to hangers going off bolts. I have done some tests. It is possible for a properly clipped hanger to come off a 3/8″ bolt if a lightweight carabiner is used and the bolt sticks out a bit.
If a 10mm bolt (which has a much larger head than the 3/8″) or a normal-sized carabiner is used I have not managed achieve this. I guess it would take a lot of deformation.
Glenn’s forthcoming article on bolting is long overdue, but given that most people will lose the WC, would it not be better to post it, and links to bolting sites, on a separe subpage on the CAWA web? I’m sure evryone can read the available info and make up their own mind.October 4, 2005 at 12:00 am #3167
Numbat – just because Bunnings wasn’t around in the 60s (maybe it was?), doesn’t mean we shouldn’t shop there now. Equally, the fact that ‘great climbs’ were protected using carrots in the 60s etc. does not mean we should trust them when safer alternatives are available.
We could go on like this for weeks….October 4, 2005 at 12:00 am #3168
yes, but there is a difference between ‘safer alternatives’ that are in the same spirit as the original climb, and ‘safer alternatives’ that are not. Replacing a dodgy carrot with a ring bolt that can be clipped while blind drunk and in the dark is very different from replacing it with a safe glue-in hex.
Where’s your sense of adventure? It seems that many climbers these daze don’t have one and unless it’s nice and warm and there’s a coke machine in the corner and P-bolts ladders, then they can’t climb.October 4, 2005 at 12:00 am #3169
The 60’s and 70’s are long gone mate….let go. Pitons are long gone….time for carrots to rest in peace in a museum somewhere! They’ve served their purpose. P-bolts have one advantage in that they offer a way out should the route beat you. And you’ll never better yourself unless you push your limits…at times we push too far.
One question: How is a p-bolt like a bunnings ladder? You don’t use the bolts to climb on only as a means to clip for some protection if you fall. Maybe this concept is beyond the understanding of a timid ant-eating marsupial such as yourself.
NextOctober 5, 2005 at 12:00 am #3170
Point taken, but I disagree none the less.
I thought the love of carrots in this state was on account of their visual qualities (also debatable), rather than their ability to make climbers ‘hard’. When you stop talking about safety and start talking about toughening people up, this becomes a (far more) subjective debate and loses relevance as far as I am concerned.October 5, 2005 at 12:00 am #3171
To all the people out there who worship at the altar of p-bolts, please be aware that there are other ways to climb – it is your right to turn climbing into a sport rather than an adventure (that’s why it’s called sport climbing), but there are others who still want the adventure. Some countries, like Spain and France, have opted for sport climbing, which is fine if certain aesthetics are adhered to. In Western Australia we seem to be in transition, and some people don’t appear to have any idea about aesthetics. There is a wonderful photo on the front of the Perth climbing guide book of a climber on Llama Rock. This photo would be ruined now because someone felt the need to put p-bolts on the skyline. Never once while I was climbing in Spain did I see a line of p-bolts placed with such blatant disregard to aesthetics. It looks bad, and if non-climbers/CALM notice it looks bad (and other lines like it) and develop a policy for climbing in WA, there is a big chance we won’t get to enjoy climbing in the same way we do now.
So, all you p-bolters out there, be aware that (1) people who are out for adventure have just as much right to the rock as you have and (2) when you’re p-bolting, be aware of the issues, and bolt accordinglyOctober 5, 2005 at 12:00 am #3172
Point taken. Still disagree. I have photos of the rock in question and unless you blow it up 500% you can’t see the bolts you mention.
Don’t confuse my support for hangers and p-bolts with a desire to make every climb a sport climb…far from it! Trad should be the first option, mixed (combination of trad and sport)the second option and then sport as the third option where no trad can be placed.
I will however admit to an absolute hatred of carrots and see no place for them in this world now that there are far better options. Those of you that berate the p-bolt seem misunderstand why i am in favour of them. You dont’t use them to climb like a “ladder”. You still have to climb the ROCK, clip the bolt and clip the rope! How is that different to clipping a carrot besides the obvious extra waste of time of placing a plate?
If nothing else this forum has been fun and interesting and demonstrates we have a long way to go before we can agree on one single topic
MintOctober 6, 2005 at 12:00 am #3173
well done Glenn…now that sensible pro is there i bet the critics will dump their forum ethics and proceed to use it, many of them thinking “thank god glenn spent that $48”.
rod, a rebolter elsewhere on the planet where its seemingly more appreciated.October 6, 2005 at 12:00 am #3174
Rod, Kris and others…
you continually confuse ‘rebolting’ with ‘retrobolting’. You also seem to continually confuse ‘carrots’ with ‘glue-in hex heads’. How come?
Rod, regarding you comment of “i bet the critics will dump their forum ethics and proceed to use it” – well, what choice do we have when you force your ethics (or lack of) onto me? And before you throw that back at me, MG was bolted about 13 years or so ago using carrots – which, I agree, need to be replaced, as do most carrots. But you fail to see that in those 13 years MG has been climbed many times and no one has ever complained before that the hex-heads were difficult to clip or made the climb too hard or went against their ethics – so why now?
Certainly people have complained that the zinc-plated carrots did not meet specs on safety grounds and even did not meet official CAWA bolting guidelines, but that is all. The ‘ethics’ issues of carrots have never stopped anyone climbing on MG.October 6, 2005 at 12:00 am #3175
No confusion here. Rebolting is replacing like bolts, Retro is replacing old bolts with different bolts…correct?
I just hate carrots and hexes because i believe better alternatives exist. Simple.Just my opinion nothing else.
We should do dinnerOctober 6, 2005 at 12:00 am #3176
even if it had been replaced by new carrots, the spirit of the climb would have been altered…whether you call it retro or rebolt.
my point on ethics relates to the subsequent climber, as you have alluded to. assume that glenn et al had left the original protection in place but put in the new shiny gear resulting in 2 methods of protection. would you seriously choose to clip to the rusty gear and not the new stuff? if the answer is yes, its easy to leave it there.
based on the various guidelines and flame wars in multiple forums, climbing community convention seems to be that with the fa’s permission the equipper can re-engineer it almost any way they want. i didn’t set the rule but do try to follow it, as do most.
my take on this situation is that these guys took those conventions into consideration. glenn et al had the guts to stand up and say they re-equipped a route. i wanted to stand up and be counted as saying thanks because its a generally costly task that tends to draw criticism as in this case but it actually merits praise…as you acknowledge.October 7, 2005 at 12:00 am #3177
The great thing about discussion is that it often gets results. The result in this case is that Glenn, CAWA and a few others, me included will be getting a batch of hex head bolts of sufficient length with extra thread length to make us all happy. All, except those who are pushing their limits and need ring bolts to do so. CAWA is getting the bolts so they will be available if someone needs a few and doesn’t want to buy a 100, and they will be sold to climbers at only just a little more than cost.October 7, 2005 at 12:00 am #3178
What a waste of time, effort, discussion and money. With these sort of attitudes about embracing the new bolting techniques, you have insured that the crags around Perth stay relatively empty and the climbs will not be done in there current state, still we can all go bouldering instead!October 7, 2005 at 12:00 am #3179
Funny, I still climb. Most of my friends climb, and they even manage to climb using hex heads, but you know the really scary thing, a lot of them use natural gear, even scarier, some of them do onsite leads of new climbs, from the ground up, with no prior inspection, and I can tell you for sure, I have never had bigger kick than that. Open your eyes, there’s a lot more going on in climbing than ring bolts. If you find new climbs that need bolting, then you are of course free to go buy the bolts, the glues, the tools and bolt them yourself. But I’ll tell you now, you bolt something that can be done on natural gear, I strongly suggest you don’t own up to it. No-one will have the slightest bit of respect for it.
TocOctober 8, 2005 at 12:00 am #3180
numbat, i was on a bit of a troll for you in the earlier 2 posts because you just seemed so worked up about it, i tried but couldn’t pass on it. please accept my apologies for being so infantile.
justin, the hex head bolt outcome is actually pretty good. well installed quality hex heads are pretty safe once you’ve learn’t how to use them and they save you lugging the full trad rack. on my last trip home i didn’t clip any but that was simply because i was in sport and bouldering mode (mostly ended up solo/bouldering low fall consequence new traverses over the ocean). under different circumstances i’d clip a decent hex head. i hope you’ve already started to renovate routes but if not there’s so many fixer-uppers out there in need of attention that i’m sure you’ll find a huge number where permissions to instal rings are readily forthcoming…though you may attract a little heat in the process