Home Forums First Ascents Carrots?

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  • #6930 Reply
    ed nepia
    Member

    hmm perspective eh….. i think mike you need to broaden yours

    wake up and smell the times are a changing

    #6931 Reply
    mike
    Member

    yawn logan, my argument still stands.

    as you just said – youre guilty of doing the same thing. and youre also guilty of having used other people’s examples of the same thing (eg sweetpea and cardiofunk) to train on.

    so maybe we should just have the same ethics as outside a quarry. there would be 2 17s, a couple of 21s, and heaps of 34s for logan to climb.

    just change your mindset people. quarries are outdoor gyms. first in best dressed on the virgin rock. there are many many hard routes yet to be done outside of the quarries – just go and find them (and dont bolt them with carrots, nor complain if matt and jim beat you to them haha)

    #6932 Reply
    Peter
    Member

    Smells like sex in here.

    #6933 Reply
    Logan
    Member

    Mike,

    Maybe these routes would have been good 30 somethings. Now we will never know. It would have been good for these to be left untouched.

    To compare M and J to the guys that put up these hard chipped routes and aspired to tick them sometimes taking years to do it is absolutely laughable. M and J are taking up verticle real estate with quick tick mass produced climbs with no thought of the climbing community as a whole.

    #6934 Reply
    David
    Member

    Maybe they would have been sh*thouse 30’s… or sh*thouse 39’s… who’s to say they would have been more value than a sh*thouse 21 or 24 or even 14 for arguements sake.

    Is that jealousy I detect that some people got out there and did something before you did !

    #6935 Reply
    shane shaw
    Member

    can I take a drill out to mountain quarry and make my own 16 right up the middle of the carrots climb ? I can’t afford new bolts but I have a few old rusty ones that I can use for the climb. That glue is bloody expensive so how about I use my son’s school glue for year 2.

    anyone want to help ?

    Logan, Ed & Colin you all speak with wisdom however I think mike has lost his perspective. I think he has been away too long.

    #6936 Reply
    David
    Member

    Speaking from a world of experience there are you Shane ??

    Do you climb any routes at the quarry that don’t have carrots or weren’t originally put up with them ?

    #6937 Reply
    shane shaw
    Member

    mate I haven’t climbed anything with carrots as yet. I climb on glue in bolts. climbing a 25 or a 30 not for me. I prefer to play on 18,19,20,21,22’s and even they are hard

    #6938 Reply
    shane shaw
    Member

    mate I haven’t climbed anything with carrots as yet. I climb on glue in bolts. climbing a 25 or a 30 not for me. I prefer to play on 18,19,20,21,22’s and even they are hard

    #6939 Reply
    shane shaw
    Member

    mate I haven’t climbed anything with carrots as yet. I climb on glue in bolts. climbing a 25 or a 30 not for me. I prefer to play on 18,19,20,21,22’s and even they are hard

    #6940 Reply
    ed nepia
    Member

    Ah well maybe your right Mike lets just sit back and watch the last pieces of blank rock be improved with sculptured routes and carrot bolts..

    then by the magic of develop at all costs and screw the world logic

    we will just start filling in the holds

    one by one

    till they suit the next generation of strong climbers

    voila a four finger pocket becomes a mono …

    sculptured brilliance of course, classic 24 becomes hyperclassic 28

    or perhaps at least try and have a rational debate

    David and Mike i think you guys are misinterpreting some reasonable questioning of tactics/ethics as jealousy over who got the first ascent and thats just not true. I would rather have my toes rot off then brag over the FA of a chipped route, but hey thats just my opinion.

    Mike your right about costs in so far as saying good bolts cost more, but have a look at the world around , carrot bolts are universally rejected as adequate permanent anchors, so dont be so offended when climbers object to their continued use. You acknowledge that you hate the things but wont offer support for using better technology.

    Perhaps it might be time to acknowledge that the climbing community is getting bigger, the climbing community is also much more mainstream then at anytime in the past, standards are improving, amounts of undeveloped rock are decreasing, technology has improved and that all these factors (and heaps more) will generate new thinking around what we do as a climbing community.

    Mike you seem to argue that all the chipped consumer routes are ok cause they’ll get lots of use, and theres some merit in that but as Logan argues thats also robbing the future strong climbers of the chance of climbing very hard routes

    So I guess if your comfortable seeing the future limits of climbing being diminished then by all means grid chip the quarries

    But does Perth really need more chipped moderate routes anyway?

    #6941 Reply
    mike
    Member

    ok ok fair enough, arguments made. so am i correct in saying ed, colin, logan, shane etc that you want NO MORE chipping in quarries?

    or are you just reserving the decision to be made yourself?

    or are you saying “we have lots of classic, chipped routes now so no more, cause we need to think about the future”?

    which you could re-interperet as “we liked chipped routes before but seeing as though M+J are stealing all the real estate, we wont like chipping any more (until i want to put a route up)”

    as logan said “Chipping in quarries should only be given the ok with a large groups consent that yes this route is probably not doable or harder than grade 40 or something” – so is chipping ok or all of the sudden not?

    you see what i am saying people? the hypocrisy is rife and bloody annoying. oh and shane, read the above post. no you cannot chip an existing climb.

    #6942 Reply
    Shannon
    Member

    Personally I don’t really care if quarry routes are chipped and glued as long as it is a reasonable quality job. I love Urban Ethics, quite like Sweet Pea, have been on others I can not stand. My opinion others will disagree I am sure. On the other hand Carrots should be banned, there is notelling how safe they are as each carrot is ground individually and belted into a different rock, which means the rock could easily be damaged or the taper of the carrot only just holding. People have said carrots are fine in the situations they are being used, thats crap. Over the years many carrots have been replaced because they work themselves loose or the rock was damaged.

    Some of you have said “if you don’t like carrots, don’t climb the routes” well that is not going to leave us a lot of choice in the end if M + J keep whacking climbs up every little piece bare rock as soon all of the new routes will have carrots in them. I do not out up many climbs so I won’t have the chance to beat these guys to the rock, when I do put up stuff though I don’t chip or drill holds I climb up to the climb not bring it down to me. Also I use the best possible protection available to me, usualy glued in P’s or U bolts. It costs me a bit more but quality over quantity any day.

    #6943 Reply
    Brett NP @ Boya
    Member

    As someone who’s had an almost newly-placed carrot & it’s surrounding rock pull out on them whilst just resting on it, I’d agree with earlier posters, carrot use should be binned!!

    I have climbed moderate carrot routes since, around grade 20-22, but am very leery of them & always try to back them up with gear.

    Anyway, I will put my money where my mouth is & contribute some $$ to the bolting fund soonest. Here’s an idea, maybe whoever pays for an entire carrot route to be re-bolted gets to rename it – I’d be in it??!

    cheers,

    Brett NP

    #6944 Reply
    Owen
    Member

    No hypocrisy Mike, just people who are capable of processing concepts in terms other than black and white.

    Since you need to be reminded, chipping is out – always has been, always will be. The few aberrations have only been tolerated in small doses.

    Now that we are seeing the future of Perth climbing evaporating at the hands of people who are incapable of exercising moderation and discretion, many (although I admit not all) Perth climbers are beginning to regret not taking a more hardline stance from the outset.

    Bulls is a good example. The first to spot it were not Matt and Jim – people have been looking at that line for years. They had the vision to see that it would go, but since it was beyond them they left it for the future.

    It doesn’t matter who spotted it first. The point is that the potential for a classic testpiece is now lost.

    I must confess to getting on Bulls for the first time before the FA. I saw bolts and jugs all over it and no red tag at the start, so I jumped on it. I onsighted to the top holds but pumped out at the anchors and jumped off before clipping them. I spoke to Matt a week or so later and he said “yeah the route next to power play is almost ready, but I just need to make the holds a bit bigger”.

    Why must it be brought down to his level?! There’s no glory in it, it’s just lame!

    The floodgates are wide open and must be shut. Those without tact or moderation are forcing a hardline stance. The chipping must stop. If you want a gym, go to the gym!!

    Mike, I have climbed all of the chipped 24/5s in the quarries (last I checked). Anyone who thinks they’re beautiful, as has already been observed, desperately needs to get out more.

    #6945 Reply
    Were-Rabbit
    Member

    Bounce…….Bounce…… While the moon was full I ate all the carrots on Carrot Terrorism. All gone! And to note – two of them were placed in overhanging rock…..Bounce…..Still Hungry…..Need to eat more….Bounce….

    #6946 Reply
    Elliot
    Member

    Here’s an easy solution.

    Before someone decides to bolt their new route, they come onto the CAWA site, say that they are doing it and anyone who wants to complain about carrots can donate cash until enough money is raised to safely bolt the climb.

    I know I complain about bolts…but I’ll sure as hell put my money in. I’m sure most of you guys/girls would too.

    That way at least we can sit on our high horses rightly. Sure it means it’ll take more time to get new routes up but at least they’ll last longer and be done more “professionally”.

    As for my opinion on chipping. Chip away in the Quarries. Quarries are man made shit holes anyway. When you hit the natural rock then leave it be and only bolt if cams/nuts/hexes etc wont work.

    #6947 Reply
    Were-Rabbit
    Member

    I say join with me fellow rabbits and help munch those carrots. Pull ALL carrots with those front big teeth. Carrot Terrorism is just the beggining… I spit in Matt & Jims general direction!!

    #6948 Reply
    mike
    Member

    great start were-rabbit. but did you replace the bolts with suitable alternatives? or are you just looking to be incendiary without offering a solution?

    #6949 Reply
    Were-Rabbit
    Member

    All solutions have a number of steps. The first step is for people to say they want something better. i think the second step is to make a statement/s to those who will not listen. The carrot placing must stop first! So munching them as they are placed as well as the other more recently grown have to go. The carrot boys will gain some respect back by putting suitable protection in at their cost. As mentioned in a previous post Matt can afford an Audi!! why not a bit of glue?

    #6950 Reply
    mike
    Member

    in that case you chose an aptly named climb as your first victim. who knows what climbing terrorism this will incite next!

    #6951 Reply
    Ross
    Member

    It seems to me that concern is not so much with chipping and gluing but with taking up real estate with M+J routes that are all up to 25, because that is how hard they can climb. (Besides the carrots discussion which I stay out of and were-rabitt seems to have covered.) This is a fair point. We now have many climbers that can do 26+ and the offerings are dismally few. So get out and bolt guys! If you cannot do it, red tag it, if somebody steals it we will ignore that person in the next guidebook. To be honest I cannot climb past 24. But my next route will be a public project, no softening, may the best man win, and it will be 25+ so not me. I think that is how I can make a positive contribution….

    Hey Logan – good points; if you want to regulate, ask not what CAWA can do for you but what you can contribute to CAWA. You want to set up a system. How would it work? How would people be made to comply? We’d be happy to see anyone else who has ideas about anything. CAWA is just a vehicle for doing stuff that active people want to do.

    #6952 Reply
    ed nepia
    Member

    one easy step that CAWA could take is to specify what types of bolts/anchors are suitable in this region and/or rock type

    bolt/anchor standards like this are common worldwide now and are easily adapted to local conditions

    second easyish step is to create a bolting fund whereby CAWA holds a stock of standard anchors which can be made available to members at a discounted price. Non members would pay a premium.

    the above can be funded by subs, sponsorship, donations and guidebook revenues

    Thirdly CAWA could facilitate bolting workshops where attendees could be taught the hows and whys of bolting safely

    The chipping question should be subject of debate especially as the remaining unchipped lines are diminishing quickly

    the sysytems described above have worked in other climbing communitys and everyone benefits

    #6953 Reply
    Elliot
    Member

    Sounds good Ed.

    #6954 Reply
    Richard W
    Member

    Always keen to help the re-bolting of lines. Getting rid of carrots is a great idea!

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