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6 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3824kimKeymaster
many perth climbers are a bunch of complainers and very hard to please indeed.
last time i was involved in placing a bolt on a 23 in a crux protecting position we were acused of producing bolt ladders.
i like a mixed style of bolting inc run out ,some safe for beginners but definately no retro bolting of any semi resonable gear placment.7 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3825RodKeymaster
RE post of 5 April.
Sorry I had some user issues which affected that last post. Please make the edit as follows before replying:
A) delete sentences 2 and 3 of the first para, they’re true but were intended to be deleted.
B) insert “climbed” after the last word of the 3rd sentence in para 2.
Apologies…7 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3826WTF?Keymaster
Sorry Rod but i need to bring you to task on a number of points:
1) You talk about “an area” where people have bolted routes and claimed FAs that you think are not theirs. Firstly, if you dont publicly claim a FA then what do you expect? Secondly, if there are now bolts on the climbs, how did you initially do the FA? Toprope? Sorry – no dice.
2) Re the safety concerns for the LCDs: Most climbers by far are killed or injured in abseiling or descending or from objective danger such as rock fall, not in gear falls. Adding bolts to lower offs or top rope bolts is not going to lower accident rates that arnt there.
3)As for the L.H.FOOGs, they need to learn their limits. They’ll have epics and a few falls but havnt we all? You cant sterilise their environment and nor should you. As from 2 above, theyre not going take a dirt nap by ripping gear or falling from the top of a crag trying to set up a toprope. theyre going to rap off the end of their ropes or take a tumble descending Ali’s. Shit happens.
Lets face it Rod, most WA climbers outdoor resume is going to do clip-ups in the quarry, climbing sport routes at Bobs, quivering up easy trad routes at willy’s and maybe the odd bolted slab. We’re hardly in the midst of a hardcore climbing culture. In fact, thats the problem7 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3827My2centsKeymaster
I still think there is no harm in putting in good top anchors if there isnt any other “easy” trad options available, I’m refering more to easy climbs for newbie outdoors types, Take Pink Knickers for eg, Many first timers outdoor climb, I’ve seen many people out there with no trad (cams, nuts) gear trying to make a good anchor for TR, Its an easy climb but building a good anchor up there requires either masses of slings and/or static ropes or a few decent sized cams and/or hexes.. I dont see this would detract from the climb but would prob help to make many peoples first outdoor expedition safer and more enjoyable.. Another comes to mind.. Lost Arrow.. 1 bolt for belay ?? again.. easy climb but you need trad gear to build a safe belay.
regards7 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3828kimKeymaster
Puting ancors on pinknickers is a terrable idea not to mention highly unethical.This route is probably the best route in perth to be tought to lead on and then set up an ancor system ,offering a good variaty of different styles of gear placments.
I also agree strongly with WTF,When was the last time i saw a climber trying sky walker? or any old school route for that matter.Anything climbers are a dying breed in perth im ashamed to say.7 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3829RodKeymaster
In response to WTF?:
1) I’d expect them to bolt according to the CAWA ethics. The routes were solos, cruxes within 3m-5m of the ground, max out at 10m with an easy walk off back around to the face. Little more than high ball bouldering, one crux is trad protectable. Initially designed to illustrate that I empathise with Ross on bolting practise, I intended deleted these sentences because they are a diversion. When I realised they’d been posted the two sentences were retracted.
2) http://alpineclub-edm.org/accidents/cause.asp?cause=2 will add some weight to your argument…and mine. There’s other data around if you’ve the time.
3) Yes they should learn, I’m lucky I didn’t die or end up permanently injured in the process…after learning comes the dreaded lapse.
I’d like the liberty to place solid anchor bolts such that people can more safely lower off to top rope a crack route here and there. It’s a safety suggestion, not for me or anyone else to enact unilaterally, best enacted via an addition to the CAWA bolting ethics. If that doesn’t happen, I’m easy either way. I’m still offshore for at least another 3 or 4 years, happier to explore and boulder new places when I’m back home.8 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3830RossKeymaster
So we are both offshore now eh? I will be coming to Perth mid-2007….
This idea about climbing new routes and then keeping them quiet so as to keep off the hordes has some issues with it. Publishing a trad FA pretty much quarantines it as “do not bolt here”. Keeping a trad FA quiet…no one can be blamed for bolting the thing if it has no gear. If it has gear then….well, I already discussed that.
Bolting anchors on Pink Knickers (not your post but elsewhere)….not a good idea. As far as I can remeber then pro can be done with a 20m static rope (wrapped around boulder), and if anyone contemplates toproping around Perth then this (or flat 20m tape) are essential equipment. Flat tape is more wear resistant actually.
There is an environmental reason for loweroffs. For example in 2002 I put loweroff anchors on all Wungong Slab climbs, and CAWA paid for them. Not only were the existing 2 existing loweroffs poor (40mm carrots, unrated shackles etc) but the only descent path is down a steep gully L of climbs. This was being seriously eroded. by people sliding down it. So in many cases loweroffs protect the environment; and they do not affect the actual climbing experience. Similar story for P bolts on top of Churchman’s, CAWA paid for them and me and Toc installed them. This should have been done 20 years earlier, before all the shrubs were ringbarked and killed and the top of that crag turned into a gravel pit. I don’t like bolted loweroffs but in cases like this where trees and descent gulies get it, I see that as the lesser of the two evils.9 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3831RodKeymaster
As bolting is generally a sensitive subject amongst climbers, oft subject to flame wars, may I suggest we leave it out of this thread from here on.
1) SOLOs/ HIGH BALL BOULDERS. I have a mentor in here in CH. At the end of last season my mentor had a word in my ear about my tendency over the past 18 months to engage in high ball bouldering. Following Ross’ point on the Anglo/French historical debate I’ve spent a little time looking at DVD’s of the period from the 1970’s through to 1990’s from both sides of the Atlantic. Rock climbing feats a plenty but it was a sobering experience to note the number of great climbers who are gone, be they from a predominantly sport or trad background. That coupled with 4 months of winter reflection saw the decision made: I won’t be soloing short lines or high ball bouldering from here on in.
Ross, the Anglo/French point you made in the bolt discussion may have indirectly saved my life. Thanks.
2) ACCIDENT REPORTS. I really find these help in avoiding complacency and greatly aid the learning process.
To that end, the best tool I’ve found is formal accident reports. The limitations are the disjointed manner of trying to find them and the language divides across the globe. To highlight, if you browse though the Accidents, near-misses and mishaps section of the CAWA site there are two references posted by Ross and CAWA Safety and Training. One is the for the American Alpine Club whilst another goes to Iain Sedgman’s study of Australian accidents of the past 50 years. Toying with the search engine I turned up the excellent Canadian Alpine Club online site, this is also linked from the American Alpine Club site. Effective April 2006 there is an editorially reviewed Australian register, they’ll have a funding issue longer term.
Rather than relying solely on the CAWA Accident forum, may I suggest building a location containing a series of CAWA links to accident reporting sites globally? So far I’ve not found a similar site. To help bridge the language divide, I can translate the info I obtain through my role with the Club Alpin Suisse and provide it on an annual basis. If CAWA do not have the resources I’ll build a page over here and find hosting then post a link thereto in the CAWA Accident, near-misses and mishaps forum. I’ll provide a 2-week window for comment before review, if anyone has found a site that does this job…PLEASE POST!9 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3832RodKeymaster
Thanks for input on FA’s Ross.
In West Oz, mine have generally been high ball boulders/short solo’s. There’s only location that I think is good enough to claim from a personal viewpoint. The CAWA ethics on bolting cracks will protect the best line. Some others I did in the same area are worthwhile from a climbers perspective, they can’t be top-roped and they’re unprotectable so they need bolted protection. Honestly, for the first time in my life this site has left me in a bit of an FA claim quandary. It was just SO peaceful. I haven’t quite decided how to proceed.
During the last trip home I spent some time bouldering around Merredin, found some surprisingly good slab traverses, slopers and one or two cracks. No real environmental issues anywhere. Anyone who wants to have a go, please use liquid chalk.9 April 2006 at 12:00 AM #3833RodKeymaster
I’m really having issues with these posts: please read “only one location” at the beginning of the second sentence in that last one.