Roo,

Go for it! Who cares anyway, in your mind you know you climbed it and thats really all that counts. If you do bolt it don’t ruin it by putting carrots in, they are dumb, dangerous and usually ruin a potential good climb!

With the ultra-safe, zero commitment, bolting standards used today a top rope ascent is good enough for a first ascent.

Dear Dr Piton..

If your going to make opinionated statements at least have the balls to put your name on your post.

There are a few routes at Wungong from memory where the FA was done on a static rope with loops tied in it before it was later bolted. I recall reading about a few others around that where done like this too. AND if someone was to put belay bolts in the top why not the route ?? There are many routes out there that have NO protection and must have been top roped. Take Middle Line and The Crap Game at Strathams for eg. How where they “put up” ?? How would you climb them if you wanted to lead it ??

The initial question asked here was if the loops in your static rope was a safe practice if there where no bolts and you didnt have a trad rack.. the answer appears to be YES. If given the choice of climbing something in this style, soloing it (remember we where talking about 30m+) or walking past it.. what would you do..??

I’m not saying this is a good way to do FA’s and your correct that the climb would be of little value if left this way. But as many of us havent bolted and would prefer it was done by someone with experience, So…I think it was a fair question to ask that if bolting and trad was not an option would the looped rope be an acceptable method.. The alternative could be to take my 24v hammer drill, buy some sort of expansion bolts from Bunnings, 20 bolt plates, and go for my life.. I think we’d all agree thats not the best solution either..So someone finds a climb, is happy to publish it, and then accepts an experienced bolters offer to help him bolt it. We end up with a new climb that should be safely and adequately protected.. This question was to draw discussion around this and it appears to be working…

Cheers

🙂

OK Peter (aka Dr Piton..)

You had a legitimate point.. especially the last part where you said “…..and if you think that you can claim a first on a legitimate gear climb, be prepared to be laughed into oblivion!” ( I would agree with this) Although I wasnt basing this on a climb that could be protected.. or was even “safely” runout..

Also I agree It wouldnt be reasonable to expect a route that was put up this way to remain that way.

Cheers

Maybe claim it with one of those “M” ratings for aid climbing if you’re worried. I’m not too worried about grading ethics myself. 🙂

Kris – I’m saying if the static is there so climber has the option to grad it, which is much easier than trying to grab a bolt. So commitment is lower.

Roo – now that I have thought about it further, basically the FA all boils down to who gets their name in guidebook, e.g. “FA: Evil Karneavil, 1/6/66”.

If it was not for this issue then a toproped first ascent is a first ascent, I mean it is 1st and it is an ascent! An ascent by any other means (incl static), as long as it is first and is an ascent, is also a “first ascent”.

So does this mean that anything goes as far as guidebooks are concerned?

I think not and the reason is that climbing (to me) is all about STYLE. I mean you can hike El Cap up a walking trail if you want, no need to suffer the head wall. Churchman’s has a perfectly good walking path to the top. So rock climbing is about seeking ARTIFICIALLY difficult ways to the top (I’m not talking Everest or peakbagging here). This articial difficulty increases from toproping to sport, to trad to soloing (for same Aust grade). So we draw a totally artifical line in the artificial sand that is rock climbing and say that, to reward style, a guidebook FA can be claimed only by people who lead or solo the thing and leading trumps toproping or slings. If you poll the climbers who have been around for a few years I’m sure 90% will back me up. Of course to any new climbers all this will seem totally ambiguous because it is.

And on a separate note, who wants to drag around 20m of static for protection so they can “lead”, either bolt the thing for me or I expect to be able to trad it.

And you can toprope a 60m climb on a 60m rope so no real need for a new style around Perth anyway…

That’s my 5c worth.

Hey,

Thanks Toc, Great climb too, I remember it was a Wungong route.

I Agree that if there is no natural pro and needs bolting then it should be. I suppose I was more questioning this scenario – I find a route that looks climbable but there is no natural pro, I havent any experience bolting so am reluctant to just bolt it without supervision/help. So I “lead” it on a fixed static line with loops fairly spaced as where I’d expect to put bolts, I publish the climb and call for help to bolt it… It now becomes a route for all to enjoy.

Having said all this I wouldnt like to see this as the “norm” for all new routes, I do think it encourages more people to look for new routes, even if they dont have the means to bolt it. I also agree that this method is no substitute for natural gear and any climb that can be protected with gear should be climbed that way.

And thanks Ross for the detailed explanation, Makes plenty of sense.

Cheers all.