Great that you guys are putting up new routes/variations, but just wondering why you are using fixed hangers on wilderness slabs that have tourist tracks running underneath???.

Im not questioning the function of the bolts, but the visual nature of the bolts being used. There is a big difference and such visual bolts will not help our cause if access issues arise. Food for thought!!

if you bolt…. then why not say who you are.

all the bolters i know put there names next to their actions. carrots / GIMB or otherwise…..

george’s point is a good one. doesn’t matter if its wilderness or not. we should consider such things.

however, you probably can hardly see the hangers from the track so i doubt its an issue anyways….

regardless.

good to see some people doing new stuff and not more internet whinging.

Firstly put your name to your post if you want to be taken seriously!!!.

If you believe it is about following some rule written in a dusty book somewhere, then I think you missed the point!.

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, the real threat to “us” being able to climb is dealing carefully with the people that own/manage the land. As i said before, Im not argueing about the functionabilty of the bolt ie. GIMB/Carrot/FH whatever. Im pointing out the fact that we need to be smart about what be place and where.All types of bolts have there places and applications(so, no we can’t ringbolt everything!!). It is ignorant to think that just because it isn’t in the rulebook then it can’t be so.Alot of these “guidelines” were written in times when access wasn’t an issue and bolting wasn’t as prolific.

So maybe it’s the rules that need to get out of the 70’s…….

I was at Frankland recently and we couldn’t see the damn bolts at ALL! Little sparkly things that we thought might be GIMBs turned out to be crystals when we ventured near them. Great fun, I’ll tell you. We couldn’t find Where Eagles Soar despite four people looking for it for half an hour and eventually turned tail from the onslaught of march flies and dearth of bolts and went to the pub.

So, yes, GIMBs are visually unobtrusive alright! Invisible! I have yet to meet a walker who complains about bolts- they are usually interested to see people climbing and have a chat.

Get over it guys and put some bolts on that people can see. If money is the problem, send me an email and I’ll personally give you the $$ to buy non-invisibility bolts.

I can just feel the ‘righteous’ out there weighing in with ‘if you can’t see the bolts we have carefully hidden among the granite crystals then you shouldn’t be climbing- finding bolts is part of the adventure’ . . . .

Have you noticed that in most places around the country that are national parks ring bolts are quite prevelant. For example the the WORLD RECOGNISED Grampians have ring bolts all over it. Okay before you pike up about state laws etc. so does Kalbarri our best climbing region in WA.

CAWA’s redundant view on carrot/GIMB methods is behinf the times and should, instead of bitching about how DEC dosn’t fully undestand and you are keeping them happy, you not justify more fully the reasons of bolting properly.

Before you critisise this view consider the fact that all my bolt plates were nicked BY CHINESE CLIMBERS because they thought that the idea of an incomplete bolt was so unique that they had to have a souviner.

GET INTO THE MODERN AGE CAWA AND YOUR MEMBERSHIP MIGHT INCLUDE MORE PEOPLE UNDER 40,likethe new generation ofclimbers who actually climb other places than WA!!!!!!!!!!

ooohhh lots of internet snootyness.

1) yay for the CAWA bashers. I am not a CAWA member, but good on anyone who donates their own time to doing stuff. if you don’t like it why not do something constructive, not involving the internet.

2) this seems to be alot of whinging from people who don’t do anything. get out there !!!

3) if you look back at all the new routes done in 2006, all the bolters bolted them exactly how they wanted to and i am 100% sure they were not influenced by CAWA, DEC, CALM, the grand master Wombat or any other hairy nosed parties.

4) there are “hardly” any ring bolts in the grampians. if you think there are lots, then go to the blue mountains and you’ll change your mind.

5) for the disbelievers; australia has many crags that have been closed in the past or put under access restrictions because of the excessive visual impact of ring bolts.

6) i like ring bolts. and i place them when i want to.

7) thousands of WA climbers…… uhah ?

8) how do you know ring bolts are “safer” than GIMB or other stuff ?? the metal bits are stronger, i’ll give you that, but safer ???

Neil, Wombat,

You miss the point. CAWA is much like the USA…..means well……thinks they are always right, but usually gets it wrong. Complete rejection to change is why LOTS of us don’t join.

Hi all,

Kris, if you talk to Matt and Jim, pay for the glue and the ring bolts they may start doing what you want and seeing as they are putting up a lot of climbs around the place you may be happier. By the way, they are not CAWA members either. Emil, Mark, Jay, Kate, Neil, Wombat and others are also putting up climbs, some with bolts, mostly glue-in with a range of bolts, P bolts, rings, fixed hangers and GIMBS. Some are CAWA members, some are not. If I put up a climb which needs bolts, I’ll put up rings where appropriate and GIMBS otherwise, all glued in, all paid for by me.

You are free to go and find climbs and do the same or not if you wish. You can even go and retro-bolt climbs if you wish, at your cost in effort and money. They’ll probably be chopped by the first ascensionist who will have some strong feelings about your actions as will almost everyone else.

Even if CAWA had a rings, Fixed hanger only policy it would not be enforceable and in my opinion such a policy is not a good idea. (Sorry Edd). There really are issues with land managers about obvious bolting, (reasonable or reasonable is beside the point).

From my point of view, the only issue is that the bolt be well placed, secure, strong, appropriate for its position, (eg: on overhangs machine bolts are just dangerous, but otherwise why not), and not likely to get crags closed and that’s the policy I will argue for.

If the problem is that you are finding it difficult to stay on the rock while putting the bolt plate on, well guess what, we all have that problem, it’s called room for improvement. It’s even more so with natural gear. That’s why we tend to respect fully natural leads somewhat more. Have fun.

Cheers,

Toc.

Cooool I love flame wars!

Good job CAWA, George and all the bolters out there. Neil has a good point in saying that people who place bolts are rarely (if ever) influenced by external factors like the visual signature of a bolt. The biggest influence in my mind is cost, which is why carrots and GIMBs are so popular in this state. I see everyone’s point but i will stick to using my expansions because they have a hanger on them already and i have shit loads of them. If i want a trad experience while climbing on bolts, then to my mind I’m a little mixed up.

While one could argue the tensile and shear strengths of GIMBs are similar to expansions or glueins take a look at http://www.accidentregister.info/listsmain.html

to see how many climbing injuries and deaths are related to manual-hangared bolts. i doubt you could say that they are “as safe”.

Anyway, i dont care to argue that point, my point is, if you dont like GIMBs or carrots then dont place them. if youre not out there placing bolts then support someone who is (you could also buy our petrol drill if you want – $250 ono). The people who are placing the bolts will continue placing them regardless of DEC, CAWA or your mum.