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Cawa has chosen to become involved in a set of working committees run by Outdoors WA to draw up Adventure Activity Standards for activities, such as rock climbing, abseiling, bushwalking etc. What does this mean? Who are Outdoors WA? What are Adventure Activity Standards (AAS)? What did CAWA hope to achieve and what was achieved?
Adventure Activity Standards : these are more than a code of practice. They are standards for commercial and non-commercial bodies that take out trips of dependant participants. A dependant participant is someone who expects to be provided with something. An outdoor experience, training, equipment, advice. It’s a slippery idea. But because of this expectation, and because the body/person running the trip is supposed to have knowledge and expertise, this is taken to mean that more than the normal duty of care is owed by the organiser.
The standards themselves are supposed to be voluntary . They are not laws or regulations. However if anyone needs a law or a regulation they may grab the AAS. So there is a concern that the AASs may become something that restricts activities and access. CALM may use them to bar access to CALM managed land. This is partly why CAWA has taken an interest. In Victoria, the first state to get AASs, the alternative approach has been taken by the Victorian Climbing Club. This is to dissociate themselves from the AASs and set up and maintain their own risk management standards. This appears to be feasible for the VCC. They are a large and influential club with a strong relationship with DOC. It may yet be a necessary thing for CAWA if we are to have dependant trips, like beginners meets.
See the Victorian Standard at http://www.orc.org.au/aasdocuments/AAS_Edition2_Rock Climbing.pdf
Outdoors WA: This appears to be a quasi non-government organisation (quango) set up at the behest of Tourism Ministry to draw in members of the “Outdoor Industry” for purposes of drafting AASs. See the extract below from Tourism.wa.gov.au
14 May 2007
“Safety standards in the adventure tourism industry will be further boosted thanks to a new State Government initiative.
Tourism Minister Sheila McHale said Outdoors WA, the peak industry body for outdoor adventure activities in Western Australia, had developed the Adventure Activity Standards (AAS) to improve standards in WA’s tourism industry.
Tourism Council Western Australia (TCWA) has received $333,000 in Government funding to assist development of Adventure Activity Standards. The funding will be used to improve the National Tourism Accreditation Program (NTAP), obtain ISO 9001 endorsement, expand the customer feedback system, and provide greater verification of accredited businesses to ensure they deliver high service standards.
Outdoors WA, in association with the Department of Sport and Recreation, will present forums providing an introduction to the Adventure Activity Standards. “
Outdoors WA is run by a voluntary management committee of eight people chaired by Terry Hewitt of Adventure Out. There is a paid Admin Officer, the “Executive Officer”, who does most of the visible work, convening the working groups and possibly drafting AASs. This is Ralph Gur. The last AGM lists 28 members, probably most of whom are commercial, scouting and education. Looking at the published minutes it’s not entirely clear what ODWA’s prime line of business is. Probably supporting Ralph in his management of AAS development.
In their documentation (and in the words of the minister) they describe themselves as as “The Peak Body for the Outdoor Adventure Activity Industry in WA”. What does that mean? they’re people centric, they’re trying to influence and motivate, so words like “peak” and “premier” tend to occur a lot, and are probably only a bit of spin.
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So what happened? We attended one meeting where the ODWA members were mostly absent. There was a DEC person, two Leave-No-Trace environmental people, a educationalist, and I think there might have been one commercial person. This was odd for standards that would impact most heavily on the commercial operators. But possibly they had access to the document through being members of ODWA and Ralph was their rep?
Our aim was to clarify what the document applied to. Cawa trips comprise people who make their own decisions, have their own gear, and come and go as they please. They won’t stand in a line and take instructions, most won’t sign anything, and it’s difficult to get information out of them, even whether they’re coming on the trip or not. To apply an AAS to such a trip would be totally unworkable. The standard requires a lot of paperwork, personal details, instructor / participant ratios, site and activity plans and so on.
The fear is that the way the rock climbing AAS was initially drafted it was possible to class any group that included a novice or even inexperienced people as a dependant group. Which would put almost every climbing trip in breach of the AAS. Whether this was a real fear was debated. We didn’t get much sympathy for this position. There were statements trying to belittle any fears that the standard would effect club or individual activities. Rhetorical statements along the lines of, “how can you be scared of this, of course it doesn’t apply to you, how silly to think this would have any effect on you. Ha ha ha.”
Well verbal opinion that the standard can’t be interpreted as applying , can not be made to apply, can not make us look delinquent; that opinion is not really worth anything. What matters is what’s written in the document. We thought that it wouldn’t cost anything to make it quite clear that if you’re not providing expertise or gear or instruction then no matter how inexperienced people are on the trip you are not responsible for them. You have the normal duty of care to help those in trouble and to warn people if you see them doing crazy things. But if there is no contractual relationship, commercial or otherwise, then we can’t make decisions for others. Mainly because they will just ignore us and secondly because we don’t claim to be a training organisation or to have special skills. The people organising things do it because they volunteer to organise not because they’re any good at climbing.
Now you’d think this is a pretty simple idea. But so much of the time it just hits a brick wall. l don’t think people dislike us or that they don’t care, it’s just that organisations dealing with dependants seem to have a blind spot. To them the whole world seems to consist of tourists and school children.
Groups of people who are comfortable with what they’re doing and who can take along their less experienced friends and get them up and down the hill, they don’t see much of groups like these. They don’t realise how much of outdoor activity can be regulated out of existence.
The modern world. Everyone sues. Every injured party can find an ambulance chaser to dig for some basis for compensation. People become defensive. They don’t do anything that might expose them to fault.
No one’s interested to hear that standards/regulations/codes of practice might not apply to them, that they would be in a strong position, that they would win the court case easily. Winning can be as costly as losing. No one wants to be a target for compensation case. And no one wants to look silly by contradicting people who say there’s nothing to worry about. So what do they do? They do nothing. They don’t go out, they don’t organise trips, they don’t get involved. Not explicitly, no, they’re just too busy.
The AAS isn’t a law. Why can’t it say that if people are independent agents and make their own decisions then everything’s ok and whoever co-ordinates the trip isn’t considered as being bound by the standard. But no, so many want to leave it a bit vague, leave that seed of doubt, the little wedge of uncertainty. That little wedge that discourages co-operative action, that drives people apart, that slowly dries up organisations like CAWA.
CAWA has had problems with trips. Few people organise them. The unsueables, people paying alimony, students. And sometimes those who don’t think about it.
What did we get for all the discussion. We helped with some of the details in the document. We tried to have trips like those run by CAWA defined explicitly as non-dependant trips not falling under the standard. This was very difficult and is only noted in one sentence in the preamble and in one additional definition. This may be enough. Then again we havn’t seen the final document so our changes may have been rejected.
How do we stand with regard to the Adventure Activity Standard for Rock Climbing? At the moment if we ever run a dependant trip, like a beginners trip or belay practice, then we should do one of two things;
Comply with the AAS
or
Set up our own standards and comply with them.
Complying with the AAS is probably impractical. Dependant trips require NOLRS certified leaders. So we would then set up our own standards. This is what the Victorian Climbing Club has done. Their standards are on the internet, we could adapt them for our use.
To be credible in following our own standards we shall also have to follow the VCC’s example and explicitly NOT endorse the Adventure Activity Standards. The Committee and CAWA should seriously think about this and take some documented decisions. The problem is that because of our participation in the process CAWA’s name is all over the standards. We are acknowledged as contributors in several individual cases on more than one AAS. If we don’t set up our own standards and if we don’t formally withhold endorsement of the AAS, then any jury seeing our name on the AAS will be hard put to believe that it doesn’t apply to us. We need a counter argument. The VCC has done quite well in not participating at all and keeping its name off the Victorian AAS.
We must set up our own risk management standards.
We must pass a minuted resolution not to recognise the Adventure Activity Standards.
We might also try to get our name off the AASs. I have insisted my name not appear, but this has been very unpopular and may not be complied with.
In these standards and in any legislation or rules, we must struggle to create a space where we can stand, where we can continue to climb without hindrance. This is endless. We can never win, we can only retain what we have.
So to all the regulatory bodies, the parliament the parks to everyone who has some power, we ask for clarity. We ask not to be confused or bundled in with other types of organisation.
end
Outdoors WA are an industry peak body like other states have (Vic – VOEA and OEC, NSW – ORIC, QLD – QORF etc). By INDUSTRY peak body, they look after the commercial ventures. Theyre not spooky, underhand nor facile. In fact, head to their conference in December and meet the crew – you’ll find many a sympathetic ear.
To me it sounds like the crux (scuse pun) of CAWAs problem with AAS is that you want to lead CAWA trips, but dont want the inevitable restrictions. But the AAS are there to provide guidelines to say what sort of experience and qualifications that said leader should have. They are there to make sure the CAWA punters are properly looked after. After all, theyre coming on a CAWA trip to be “lead” in some fashion, no? In effect, youre a ‘volunteer commercial organisation’
You’ll find that VCC standards will include leaders having qualifications in climbing guiding from VCIA or equivalent. Since Vic hasnt adopted NORLS as WA and QLD have, quals still rule, not NORLS registration, but you can think of the two interchangeably. If you had a VCIA climbing qual, it would port into NORLS registration reasonably easily.
So VCC can ignore AAS cause they have a bulletproof set of standards with qualified leaders, so how can they be deemed negligent?
CAWA’s dilemma seems to me to be do you qualify leaders and standardise practices so you can meet with AAS, make your own bulletproof standards as with VCC or do you not do ‘lead’ trips?
Instead of formally calling it a CAWA trip, call it a ‘bunch of mates’ trip and you’ll have no worries….
Is the commercial outdoor scene getting more restrictive? yep. is it hurting CAWA because you dont have the resources to make and uphold standards as with AAS and VCC – sounds like it. but is it really impacting on truly recreational folks? i dont see it.
It’s good to be able to clear up these misconceptions.
The main point; on which we based our work was that for most purposes in practically all of CAWA’s activities, CAWA is NOT a volunteer commercial organisation. CAWA does not supply training or gear. At most CAWA is an opportunity to meet other climbers who may climb with you. If anyone on a trip helps someone of lesser experience they do it as an individual. Emil describes this very well as a ‘mates trip’. People on a CAWA trip meet around the camp fire. during the day they have their own plans. their own gear and they decide who they climb with and what they climb. CAWA doesn’t own the land it doesn’t own the transport. Attempts in the past to get people to sign things have been ignored. There is some organisation. CAWA publishes a trips schedule. There may be a point of contact for car pooling. There might be a campsite booking. Given sufficient financial incentive the uninformed might present this as a volunteer commercial trip. Now you can stand in front of a court and wave your hands in the air and say it was a mates trip. Who knows, you might actually convince them.
We get a lot of hot legal advice of the nature of “just-call-it-a-mates-trip-and-it-will-be-alright”. Good, put it in writing. What we’d like is some recognition in the standards that there can be such a thing as a mates trip. Outdoors WA is concerned with the “outdoors industry”. Where industry includes education and scouts. They’re an industry group full of industry people and naturally enough their purpose and interests centre on their industry. Looking at their documentation there is no mention of individual climbers, of social clubs, of lose associations of individuals who climb together. So their standards, naturally enough, will not address these entities.
What we want is recognition in the document that other kinds of groups exist and the standard isn’t meant to cover them. That would be very helpful. It would help protect the people who help co-ordinate trips. It makes publishing a trips schedule less uncertain. And it helps if the standards are ever used to bar access.
There is strong reaction against this. It ranges from “this is silly don’t worry everything’s alright”, to “resistance is futile”. Emil manages to cover both. From don’t-worry-it’s-a-mates-trip to don’t-bother-changing-the-standards-you’re-a-commercial-group-tough. What they have in common is you don’t do anything. Doing things isn’t cool. The task here isn’t to be cool. The task here is to engage with the process. It’s to argue details. To bicker endlessly. It’s a lot of work. You have to write screeds of stuff like this. What we want is very small. Just stuff like, instructor-participant ratios aren’t relevant on our kind of trip, you don’t have to be NOLRS to climb with you friends, that kind of thing. It’s not much. And if everyone thinks it’s silly and unnecessary then what harm can it do to put it in writing in the document? Why does everyone fight so hard against something they insist doesn’t matter?
A lot of this impacts CAWA more than individuals. But hey, who’s website is this. Still we try very hard to support individual climbers interests. And access concerns that effect “mates trips” does help individuals too. It’s optimistic to think that individuals won’t be affected. If you think that individuals can’t be displaced by commercial groups; Look at the quarries with the booking system. If you’re running a business you have to have assured access to an abseiling cliff. A booking gives you entitlement. That’s what that very loud NOLRS instructor and his group expected when they booked the quarry. Essentially booking was for the benefit of the commercial groups, fortunately it seems to be fading away for now.
Outdoors WA was a mysterious body. Mainly because all we saw of them was Ralph. At the working group we expected to be a face in the crowd. We were the crowd. It was amazing that a standard that would bear heavily on the commercial people attracted almost complete non-attendance from them. They were on the email list. We heard once from Terry on some equipment definitions. I choose to think that though we have divergent interests, they were sympathetic and understood what we were trying to do. They could have derided our changes but they didn’t say anything. The Executive Officer was of course much less forgiving.
We didn’t know much about Outdoors WA. Asking who had set them up and provided the money got no clear answer, there was nothing informative on the website. But we’re figuring it out. They have conferences which are widely attended by local government and sport groups. They’re involved with a lot of grants And there is information in the Dept of Sport and Rec annual report. Their outdoors email publication lists no attribution at all, but the Dept of S&R lists an achieved goal as “development of recreation industry e-newsletter”. They also list Outdoors WA as receiving $155 000 for the fin year. They are no doubt a “Peak” body. They very kindly referred to CAWA as “The Premier Climbing Body in the state”. And Outdoors WA are very nice people. They get along. It’s what they do for a living.
Victorian Climbing Club Standards. We’ve had cause to read them and I personally think they would be good for CAWA. They’re published on the VCC web site. The Trip Leaders Criteria and Guidelines is a page and a half. It refers to none of the registration requirements that Emil lists . It simply requires that the leader be deemed by the committee to comply with seven criteria. These include knowledge of the area, being over 18, basic first aid knowledge (no registration), basic rescue (no registration). It’s tempting to publish it here. It’s very short.
All this is disorganised I know – I’m pressed for time. But it covers all Emils points. I hope we get more support for our work. We’re not charismatic or even nice people so the industry crowd have a strong advantage. Still perhaps our goals will persuade.
Hiya everbody,
While I don’t think there is any disagreement with the proposal that there should be something that may as well be the AASs and that there needs to be some-one to bring them into being, and it may as well be OutdoorsWA, is there a real problem with them specifying who they are for? This has been our request all along.
There is nothing in writing anywhere that I can see, that says “mates trip” shouldn’t conform to the AAS but that’s ok, as Emil points out, the AAS are purely voluntary, except for the small matter that DEC have already indicated the West Australian AAS are likely to become the basis for regulations controlling the conduct of the 17 various outdoors pursuits on the list and climbing is two of them and abseiling, which climbers need is another. Whether or not people in the OutdoorsWA type groups around Australia are nice people is beside the point, (by the way, Ralph Gurr seems a very personable human being, though I’m not sure he or some of the other people involved think I am), they were nice people last year when we found out DEC required NOLRS qualified leaders and permits for “mates trips” as well as ours just the same as commercial trips.
This happened, the AAS hadn’t even been written yet and the “nice” people thought it was a “good” idea. People being “nice” won’t protect individual climbers, CAWA or anyone else from the consequences of “nice” people’s “good” ideas.
The only thing that will protect us from “nice” people’s vague “good” ideas is documents that are not vague, that say very clearly what is required by whom, for whom and that is what we are asking for.
Emil is absolutely right, we are concerned about CAWA’s abilities to run trips. Let me ask a question, does anyone really think it should be necessary for beginning climbers to pay for climbing lessons until they have as much expertise as let’s say me? Does anyone out there think they could afford that? I’m not suggesting qualified instruction isn’t a good idea, but what happens after that? How are beginning climbers to gain access to people of more experience if everyone of more experience is prohibited from passing on that experience because only those of us who are commercial or have the support of somebody like Scouts can afford to get NOLRS qualified? Or maybe it’s just simply that people with more experience won’t help out because the dog’s breakfast that passes for Australia’s liability, insurance and litigation system is just so terrifying no-one will look out for anybody else. Why would anyone offer to help run a CAWA trip.
Suggestions are welcome, actual help even more so.
If the AASs don’t offer some sort of recognition and protection for associations of peers such as CAWA and all of the other recreational associations out there we will have no choice but to disassociate ourselves as Richard suggests and do as the VCC has done, or we could just fold up our card table and go home.
Trust me, I’d get more climbing done, at least until some nice person decided it was a good idea for me to get a permit and pay a NOLRS qualified leader to take me out.
Don’t tell me it can’t happen, it already did.
Cheers,
Toc.
PS. Bye the way, the ranger in charge of the quarries, who thinks we should book and sign waivers is a really nice guy. I have had a long reasonably, friendly conversation with him, he’s under a huge amount of pressure from that same dog’s breakfast, I’m glad I’m not in his shoes, and he still thinks we should book and sign waivers,
and we are still working on it.
One thing I forgot.
CAWA never, ever, ever takes punters out. CAWA doesn’t take anyone out, anywhere. CAWA doesn’t have anything to do with anyone who could be described by the word “punter”.
Climbers decide to go on CAWA trips, because they want to camp and climb with a bunch of friendly people, they have decided that it’s a good way to investigate a new area, because they hope that if something goes wrong there’ll be enough people to carry them out, because they want to meet new climbing friends, because they want to benefit from the expertise of more experienced climbers, because they are more experienced climbers who feel some duty to pass on that experience, because they know that someone will have a four wheel drive or for any number reasons, but they go on CAWA trips for their own reasons as free and independent individuals, never, ever as punters. We leave that to the commercial organisations.
CAWA is not in the business of providing the activity of climbing to anybody, CAWA is an association of people who are already climbers, albeit of varying degrees of ability, and that is the “crux” of our arguement. CAWA trips are for CAWA members or guests of CAWA members, nobody else, ever.
Please don’t ask CAWA to take you climbing, we are not interested but are happy to give you the names of commercial organisations who will. Come climbing with us if you like though.
Toc,
I was talking to Sheryl last night. She said Terry Hewett (President Outdoors WA) told her that booking at the quarries only applied to groups larger than five.
?
Hi Richard,
Terry might be under that impression, but neither the DEC officer in charge of the quarries or the people in management we have spoken to would agree with him. After last year’s discussions with DEC about removing the regulations effectively banning recreational climbing, DEC have a policy of recognising that climbing is a legitimate pursuit on DEC land excepting where there are good grounds for excluding us, but we still have some rangers who, when politely told climbers plan on going to crag X,Y or Z, tell us we can’t, without any particular reson for doing so. A written document that can be referred to works, unfortunately, unwritten understandings, don’t, particularly when climbers aren’t even told they exist.