This topic contains 30 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by Neil 4 years, 10 months ago.
September 27, 2013 at 3:29 pm #110947
I was recently at Barrington Quarry (BQ) and noticed that somebody is putting up a new route on Dirty Deeds Wall just right of 100Q. It looks like its been cleaned and bolt holes have been drilled. Its great that a new route is going up but its looks like carrot bolts are going to be used as the holes haven’t been recessed and there’s already two carrots at the belay with a removable hanger and split chain-link on each. Please mistake me if I’m wrong.
Does BQ (or Perth for that matter) really need any more carrots? On some climbs at BQ the carrots on the belay don’t even have hangers which forces a walk off. In my opinion carrots are one of the reasons why BQ doesn’t get a good wrap. A lot of Perth climbers would like to see carrots be replaced with ring-bolts or expansions which may eventually happen so it doesn’t make sense to keep putting carrots in.
Glue in ring-bolts require a bit more work but really aren’t that hard to put in and aren’t that expensive. Whoever is putting the route up I would be happy to show you how to do it (not that I’m a master bolter but I will show you what I know) and I will even donate a couple of ring-bolts and glue. For climbing’s sake!September 27, 2013 at 7:11 pm #110951
Feel free to replace all the carrots there as per CAWA code of bolting – it is just a matter of time before this is done all over Perth anyway. No good whinging here, Matt doesn’t give a stuff what you think and all this ground has been covered before many times.September 29, 2013 at 10:33 pm #110983
Replacing carrots around Perth is going to be difficult because there’s so many of them and more continue to be put in. I will help replace them if a re-bolting fund is started but the first step is to stop putting them in. You’re right, this ground has been covered many times before and it will probably continue to be covered as long as carrots continue to be put in. There’s good reason why carrots cause controversy, its not just my opinion.
I appreciate the effort of route setters and can even understand why carrots may have been used for a time but fail to see why the practice continues, especially at a crag that probably already has 80-90% carrots, when most of Australia has shifted away from it? Anyway, I just thought I might offer assistance to an unknown bolter for a good cause but I can see its not wanted so enough said and I will persist no further.September 30, 2013 at 6:56 pm #110995
My personal thoughts on carrots is “Why” and the removal of all carrots is now a very belated and overdue issue. Lets move WA climbing into this millennium and make our cliffs and crags a bit safer and more user friendly for all of WA’s climbers.
The Hangout in an effort to help in this matter will buy in and donate 100 Ring bolts solely for the purpose of replacing carrots (not new lines). I will discuss with people “in the know” about the best way to see this job is undertaken / started, which routes require attention most and any other important issues before moving on this or passing out bolts willy nilly.
Gareth and TraceSeptember 30, 2013 at 8:46 pm #110996
Gareth, great work with the offer of donation.
I’ll admit when I first moved here over a year ago and went to visit mountain quarry my first thought on the carrots was “You have to be kidding me, surely not”.
Speaking from experience in South Australia, the climbing club of SA elected to replace all the carrots at Moonarie and mandate it as a carrot free crag. Much rebolting work has also been done around adelaide crags also with many of the bolting equipment and bolts being supplied by the Climbing CLub of SA. Replacing all the carrots required a fair amount of work over a few years but it has been well worth it. Undergoing some of this work myself, pretty much all the bash in carrots i replaced were rubbish. The stainless ones simply pulled out after 2-3 hits with the hammer and the softer rusty carrots simply snapped off with a hit of the hammer. Key point being you just cant tell how good they are. Glue in carrots are obviously stronger than bash ins but unnecessarily fiddly and the cheap skate option.
RobOctober 4, 2013 at 5:15 pm #111074
A few comments – firstly, are they carrots or GIMBs? Most people don’t know the difference. There is no such thing as a ‘glue-in carrot’. Either it’s a carrot or it’s a glued-in machine bolt, but not both.
Secondly, a properly placed carrot made out of a good steel or stainless steel, and put in the correct type of rock, is as strong as any glue-in. A 10 mm 316 carrot in granite will take more than ‘2-3’ hits with a hammer to get out and will almost never ‘pull out’. In sandstone or limestone, carrots and expansion bolts are to be avoided like the plague, but in granite or similar rock can be very secure. In most cases, removal of a properly placed carrot in a correct rock-type will require a lot more effort than a few hits with a hammer.
Having said that, I do agree however that, in general, carrots or GIMBs should not be used if ringbolts are suitable – and in most cases they are. In particular, the use of carrots or GIMBs for a belay, particularly without the use of a suitable ring that can be used for exiting the climb, should be avoided.
A good example are some (all?) of the climbs at East Bay, Boya/Hudman Road, which had carrots as the belay anchors. To retrieve gear after the climb involved abseiling of a tree over loose and friable choss down to the anchors. Fortunately ring-bolts have been put on most of these climbs.
One final thing, I think it’s also unfair to criticise the use of carrots and GIMBs as if they were a ‘WA’ only thing. Many of the bolts at Mt Arapiles, the Grampians and elsewhere are also carrots and GIMBs. It’s not just in WA that you find them.
NumbatOctober 5, 2013 at 10:12 am #111091
Yes. Bolts that apply continual stress to weak or shattered rock (quarries) should be avoided. Expansion bolts are the worst, and hangers are similar since they must be torqued up and are under stress 24/7. A passive glue-in bolt or ring-bolt is only ever stressed for very short periods by the climbers weight, which may seldom happen. Ring bolts may be popular but if we covered Mt Frankland with them we’d be banned. Particularly with small crags hangers and rings are far too obtrusive. Best use GIMBs for easy clips, rings for awkward ones. Feels strange agreeing with Numbat.October 6, 2013 at 4:49 pm #111118
There’s some good points made in the last few posts. Even though quality GIMBs are bomber, every climber I know has the opinion that placing removable hangers and using wire-gates is not ideal when there is no requirement and there is better and more modern alternatives.
One other issue that concerns me is that I noticed last week is that on the route in question at BQ, I noticed that the inside of the removable hanger on the anchors has been ground-down (possibly by an angle grinder) to make the inside of the hole larger. I assume this was done because the bolt stem is too wide for the hanger (which is another problem caused by bashing in carrots). Also, it took me about 3 seconds to jiggle the hanger off the carrot even with the split chain link attached. This is clearly a poor and potentially dangerous solution!
Gareth, its great your donating bolts. I am fairly new to bolting but will offer to help re-bolt. Please let me know how you go finding help and I will give you a call. CheersOctober 7, 2013 at 11:39 am #111137
I have ordered in 100 Rings and am happy to further order in 100 bolts for GIMBs as indeed there is a place for both in certain circumstances. I am fairly busy for the next period of time but have arranged to get started replacing with an experienced bolter in January. Will probably be able to do a little amount in November and also December if keen, all help would be appreciated.
GarethOctober 7, 2013 at 9:51 pm #111168
Thanks to Jonas for being interested and concerned. Thanks to Gareth for the donations. You can count me in if you need some help.
After the effort that went into revising the CAWA bolting code of conduct, I find it frustrating that people are still using carrots. I expected this to some extent from people who’ve been bolting since dinosaurs roamed the earth. But I’m disappointed by any new comers who are not respecting the code. It was produced and revised for good reason, with input from experienced and savvy bolters.
I am alarmed by Jonas’ description of the anchor. That’s really disturbing. The modification of the hanger reflects a lack of understanding about the basics of climbing safety. There are relatively few people bolting routes here, which in my opinion isn’t a bad thing. We have some very experienced, outstanding bolters here who put a lot of thought into both the routes and safe installation of fixed protection. I certainly don’t want to see a new generation of bolting that shows complete disregard for safety.October 8, 2013 at 6:32 am #111173
Agreed. Replace carrots with Glue-In-Machine-Bolts. As per 7b of the cawa bolting code.October 8, 2013 at 12:11 pm #111179
The dodgy bolt and ground down hanger in question is part of an anchor with a chain and quicklink made from inferior chinese stainless steel most likely bought from bunnings. This is probably best to not be replaced with gimbs as it is an anchor and leaving permanent hangers on gimbs or carrots can result in the mixing metal alloys which will drastically increase the rate of corrosion on the anchor ie (mixing 316 and 304 stainless is not a safe practice). I am not familiar with what the code says but It would be best in this situation to replace the dodgy anchor with glue in eye bolts.
Also another important factor in the costs associated with installing chemical anchors is glue it would definitely be worth while to have a talk to DEC as they have a reasonable supply of hilti RE500 which they use for installing anchors on cliffs as well as access to caves in the LNNP. Whilst expensive buying direct from hilti and requiring an ABN say 90 bucks a tube you might be able to get a better deal from DEC by buying their tubes that may be closer to the expiry date and haven’t been used that financial year. I anyone would like to pursue this option, I would be more than happy to make a couple of enquiries on their behalf.October 8, 2013 at 1:30 pm #111180
just kidding. Rings for lower-offs. But angle them inwards slightly to reduce twist. remark was meant to point out that the cawa bp is GIMB friendly.
Approaching DEC is a dubious idea. They may turn a blind eye to uncontrolled bolting, but liability probably won’t allow them to aknowledge it. Their bolting is done by trained people and the bolts are tagged and inspected. If pushed they would probably have to forbid uncontrolled bolting.October 9, 2013 at 8:02 am #111203
Not allowed to mix 304 and 316????
Wow that is the best bit in a thread full of misinformation by a lot of Internet do gooders who have never been trad climbing. Harden up or don’t climb the routes. Carrots can have barrington….October 9, 2013 at 9:23 am #111205
I love seeing that the elitist attitude exhibited here in perth back in the late 90’s still lives on today… Not like we’re talking about safety or anything… O.oOctober 9, 2013 at 10:52 pm #111227
Don’t worry James. If Numbat’s Mum was indeed a hard core traditionalist with even a shred of credibility, he/she (or maybe he-she?) would have the spine to post under his/her real name (rather than assuming the identity of a termite eating marsupial), on the occasions that he/she briefly emerges from his/her burrow to hurl insults.October 10, 2013 at 7:49 am #111248
At least I know what I’m talking about.
Dena seems to confuse people who have different opinions to hers as being made up heshe’s. and agrees with people who spout garbage using their real first name.
It’s not elitist. And I was climbing in early 90’s Perth and it wasn’t elitist then. Not everything needs to be brought down to the lowest common denominator. There are routes at almost every crag in the workd at either end if the scale abd plenty in the middle.
Don’t use the big S word either. No one is forcing you to climb it. Glue ins are no safer if placed by beginner bolters….October 10, 2013 at 9:14 am #111250
Hey, you three trolls cut it out. You’re just static.
Anyway in the nineties there were hardly any routes in the quarries. Climbing only took off there with bolting.
as my Lithuanian nana used to say – “play nicely, dont’a fai’t” – .October 10, 2013 at 10:15 am #111252
A troll is the person who posts the provocative comment initially, not the people who respond. Usually I ignore this person’s comments but I’m sick of seeing him hide behind a pseudonym. It’s a valid point that’s been made before – if you really back what you are saying, rather than just trying to be offensive, you’ll post under your own name.
Anyone not familiar with the code can find it on the tabs at the top of the page under ‘About’ or see it here: http://www.climberswa.asn.au/cawa/cawa-code-of-bolting-and-new-route-development/
Olly, I agree with Hammond about not approaching DEC re the glue. It’s a good idea in theory but there are liability issues as well as drawing more attention to bolting than we need to.October 10, 2013 at 11:10 am #111255
Please educate me as to how I am trolling Hammond? I only commented because I found NM’s post to be completely unnecessary. I was actually discussing this issue with Gareth a few weeks ago at the gym. IMO safety should always be first priority when climbing. It ain’t about “being hard” or “trad vs sport”. It’s about doing what is right for the climbing community.October 10, 2013 at 1:15 pm #111260
Hey kids, don’t be so defensive.October 10, 2013 at 1:40 pm #111261
Maybe if people didn’t make antagonistic and inflammatory comments in a constructive thread that is about bettering the state of climbing here in WA we wouldn’t feel the need to call them out.October 10, 2013 at 3:33 pm #111262
Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrathOctober 10, 2013 at 5:53 pm #111265
shhh it a secret
carrots? gimbs? for f…. sake why not use an aubergine and get over yourselves west australian ‘hardmen’
climbing is an evolutionary sport, grades got a lot harder and gear has got a whole lot better since the carrot and gimb placing numbats first unrolled there hawser laid ropes
debating the merits of gimbs over carrots is a bit like saying its best to fall out of an aeroplane with a hanky rather then a tissue to wipe your sad old school eyes as the ground rushes at you
pitons went the same way as machine nuts, Ebs gave way to sticky rubber, gimbs and carrot bolts belong on the same withered evolutionary branch of the climbing tree as lycra tights and porters
have a look at the calendar Numbat its 2000 and 13 …. and your time as a valid species is overOctober 11, 2013 at 7:19 am #111275
wow, a troll responding to a troll.
end of another good thread.