This topic contains 36 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by SCWA 11 years, 4 months ago.
May 30, 2006 at 12:00 am #4214
Please list routes that you believe could do with fixing up.May 30, 2006 at 12:00 am #4215
MASC’ed Boschman 15m 24- 2 corroded petzl longlifes- sitting about 1cm out from the wall-
The Spin of it 15m 24- 2 seriously corroded expansions, plus 1 hiddeous skinny carrot with a diameter of about 6mm at the hole…
Rockfish dreaming 20m 19- 1 carrot (glue/bash-in?) climb seems alot hard now the block has fallen off
15m 18/19 to the left of Setting Sun. 3 massive galvanised(???) ring-bolts, more ugly than anything! not sure who put that up
Fat Chance 15m 20- 3 petzl longlifes, especially the first 2, which im sure have seen alot of action over the years.not sure if they need repacing?
Battling the bulge-15m 19- in the guide this doesn’t have any bolts and im not sure about 19, felt stiff to me!, but there are 3 bolts, has anybody had a good look at them?.
Faith and charity on hope buttress- 3 bolts in total- petzl longlifes- any thoughts
Steel wall- Most look OK, but im not sure about the old SS bolt on steel more ulster madness/ pascal’s route??
Also not sure about the line of old bolts on the left hand end, which seem to be a bolted version of the 2nd pitch to Delving Devoids??
Disintergration 17m 22- havn’t climbed it, but might be worth having a look at?.
Precious metals- 15m 25- bolts have corrosion marks around the base.May 30, 2006 at 12:00 am #4216
Wallcliffe-where do we start!!
1. Kyle 10m 22/23
needs rebolting and possible a new lower off (at 3rd bolt) what do people think? the rope drag is pretty henious (4 bolts to replace)
2. When i was a sperm 12m 26
needs a desperate re-bolt, to remove expansions (4 bolt TR)
3. route that splits right of WIWAS 12m 24/25?
– needs expansions replaced
Lower off’s are good quality stainless rings.
(3 bolts TR)
have glue-in stainless machine bolts. Bolts look fine, but rings would be a better option?. The bee’s are the main problem.(10 BTR)
LATG 13m 22-
3 expansion- need replacing-Lower offs -good stainless rings (3BTR)
Fun, Love and Joy 18m 24-
needs a 2nd bolt to lower off- maybe a chain or alt
Banana Arma Rama- 18m 24
– 2-3 old expansions at start need replacing
Be Free 25 27- 2nd bolt to lower off is needed (1 BTR)
Freebies 25m 26
– bolts look like expansions? (joel are you out there?) not sure what lower offs are there?
(7 BTR)+ Lower offs?? (2)
Im to sexy for my python 25m 24
– Again bolts look like expansions? (guide describes as being dodgy as well!)not sure about lower offs (9 BTR)
Escape Route- 24m 25
– Same story(anybody got any info?) Looks good apart for the massive nest at the start! lower offs? (9 BTR)
Route up left side of cave? 25m ?
Expansions w/ 3/4cm of shaft sticking out (ouch) look shitty!. lower offs ?
Bitch-in 10m 24-
3 expansions – 1 of which is the lower off- needs replacing- route doesn’t look that good, but im sure
its worth a bash!
Ebb and Flow 15m 24-
needs rebolting, looks like an ok route, steep and pumpy, not sure about lower offs?(5 BTR)
Well in total thats aroud 75 bolts to be replaced with stainless rings, adn possible chains.
At around $7-8 per bolt w/ glue inc,
$300 in bolts alone
If my maths is wrong please feel free to correct?June 6, 2006 at 12:00 am #4217
Climbed down at Bobs Hollow a couple of weeeks ago and could definately add a few route which need a serious look at!.Some of the bolts on Puk Puk Sen have some corrosion streaks running down the wall. Also some of the routes at the southern end could do with the threaded tat’s being replaced and there a definately some suspect lower-offs!!. Well thats my contribution!!
P.s those bolts on toy shopping look hideous and definately need replacing. cheers geeza’sJune 9, 2006 at 12:00 am #4218
Moses Rocks and Cosy Corner could definately do with a bit of work! does anybody go there much anymore??June 9, 2006 at 12:00 am #4219
Foul Bay/Cosy Corner gneiss? I’m there for a week to ten days each trip home, its 5-10 minutes from our place and I like it a lot. Haven’t seen anything to clip but Toc seemed to think there is some metal in there somewhere. There’s a few DWS lines that I’ve done and once down by the ocean the traversing is OK too. I thought about putting in belay anchor rings along the top for easier lower offs but decided against because I didn’t want the commercial abseiling group hassle that would inevitably emerge with time. Thus I didn’t explore it in terms of permissions. I don’t think that stretch needs bolts per se: installing anchors would suffice for top-roping and gear can be placed on the way down if you’re suspect at doing it on lead.June 18, 2006 at 12:00 am #4220
What are peoples thoughts on replacing the machine heads on the following routes at Wallcliffe with ringbolts:
Royal Jelly 15m 17 3-bolts
The Sting 15m 18 3-bolts
The Hired Gun 18m 21 4 bolts
Also does anybody actually do these routes anymore- because the direct more obvious start to The Hired Gun seems alot harder than 21 (if thats where it originally went?, guide doesn’t seem to indicate otherwise)
The bolting seems quite spaced and not really in keeping with the rest of the routes at the crag.i.e it has glue-in machine heads,(where others have rings or fixed hangers) and the spaces are decent. But maybe that is appropriate as “yes” there is some natural protection (on the sting and royal jelly at the start), not sure about The hired gun- looks a little bit suspect to say the least!!. Just wondering if this puts people off??and “no” i’m not talking about sanitizing it for the mass hoards! or even retro-bolting without consent.
The question is:
was the first ascentionist worrying about the hip-pocket when they bolted it, as the other routes they did at the crag have ringbolts and if you look closely “Natural Protection”. I guess it depends on how closely you want to look and whether it has anything to do with the angle and grade??? Anyway interested to know what everybody thinksJune 19, 2006 at 12:00 am #4221
i think if you climb the hired gun, you will find the lower-off alot more concerning than the bolts.
its a very good route. underated.June 19, 2006 at 12:00 am #4222
So what is exactly up there??
Perhaps a signiture Shane Richardson single bolt lower-off?
Would rings be a better alternative, if shane agreed?June 19, 2006 at 12:00 am #4223
climb up there and have a look !
its a classic piece of engineering.
the route starts left then traverses into the first bolt. i.e climb where the big holds are.
no FA climber would complain if you replace shite lower-offs with good ones. just do it.June 19, 2006 at 12:00 am #4224
What about Ringbolts to replace the Glue-in’s on the route as well!!, seems more appropriate?June 19, 2006 at 12:00 am #4225
climb it and see.
the glued in machine bolts add a certain pumpyness to the climb that is somewhat amusing 🙂
(i’m not saying don’t replace them – just see what you reckon first)
also, fun love and joy does have a double bolt loweroff, its just an old school budget edition. the 2nd bolt is hard to see.
when you are standing at the top bolt wondering where the 2nd lower off bolt is, look down, its next to your foot and probably has a quickdraw already there that you clipped on the way up ! how handy !
yet another good trick for the aspiring new routers out there ! hehe.
there are lots more where that one came from…..June 19, 2006 at 12:00 am #4226
That is definately a interesting way of looking at what would at first seem like a tight-arsed act (going to the trouble of bolting a route and then not adding a second lower off!)Clearly it is totally functionable(don’t reckon thats what shane had in mind-maybe!!) :), but the shock loading senario if the top one failed would be interesting!.(as you would obviously know). I don’t really know why i havn’t climbed THG, as i boulder there weekly and was there last night with micko,having the same conversation, but neither of us had actually been up there!!.
The conversation became animated as we were both giving our 2 cents on the type of bolts and validity of using natural pro in soft limestone(hence this post!.
so yes i will get on it the next time im down there, but i now have the image of the worse possible rusted one bolt anchor setup in my mind and i think that will add to the thrill 🙂 cheers NeilJune 20, 2006 at 12:00 am #4227
I look forward to your comments on THG loweroff 🙂
As for shock loading…. it would be that different from falling off while clipping the top bolt.June 20, 2006 at 12:00 am #4228
… would *not* be….
🙂June 20, 2006 at 12:00 am #4229
totally there is no difference,but i think adding a 2nd bolt next to the other one will not be a hassle, what about “kyle”, you’d be on the ground by the time it took to thread both!! 🙂June 28, 2006 at 12:00 am #4230
Not quite as bad as i would have thought but as you said, it definately is a feat of not so modern engineering :), the crux of it all is definately the hidden bee-hive directly behind the anchor…sheesh 🙂
Cheers neil ..:)June 28, 2006 at 12:00 am #4231
Don’t want to start a heated debate, but someone has to initiate some talk.
What are peoples views on replacing expansions w/hangers or carrots/glued machines w/ fixed hangers with camoflaged rings?.
The area that i have in mind is Willyabrup, where the above combos have signs of corrosion (agreed, some more than others), so to replace with the same or instal, stainless camoflaged rings that will last longer in the seacliff environment?.
In my opinion if there is already a hanger, it is appropriate to replace with a ringbolt. I could be wrong, but it seems that if you are going to go to the trouble of replacing a bolt, then it should be replaced with the best quality equipment available. But in the same breath, i also believe that it is important to maintain the character of the route(with-in reason).
Some may say that the visual impact is the main reason for not wanting rings!. A properly camoflaged and recessed ringbolt is no more obtrusive than a rusted fixed hanger and is definately a better choice in the sea environment (my opinion only :). I have a meeting with CALM regarding this issue on friday and would value any suggestions and opinions.
Again i would like to stress that this is NOT ABOUT RETROBOLTING(thats the last time i will say this). But i recently read a quote from Mike Law saying that. Which i believe is food for thought
Don’t “cannonize” the old styles of bolting,most of the style comes from a mix of laziness, poverty, and ignorance.
I believe this quote is not aimed towards RETROBOLTING, but at having a long hard look at what equipment has been used and as a “community” deciding the way forward!.June 29, 2006 at 12:00 am #4232
I no longer live in WA; but I have a couple of quick comments you may find useful (its great you are having a go).
I went into the engineering aspects of rock climbing bolts in quite a bit of detail before leaving Perth.
As a result, we re-bolted a number of routes around the quarries and elsewhere before leaving Perth.
We even ended up designing a new type a glue in machine bolt….various CAWA members could tell you something about this….
# Bolt Type
I wouldnt box yourself into a corner on this issue (especially in your talks with CALM). The best system to use depends on the route, rock type, amount of $$ you have available, etc.
As i am sure you have already realised re-bolting is very expensive (in terms of both time and $$).
In order for your project to have the greatest impact (ie re-bolt the greatest number of routes), I would recommend you consider stainless steel glue in machine bolts (GIMB’s) for vertical to sub-vertical faces in good rock.
GIMB’s are relatively easy to replace, strong, low visibility and low cost. We did some tests and found that 10mm diameter GIMB’s, 100mm in length, with 80mm of M10 thread, glued in with the appropriate glues
meet the UIAA standard for axial pull out strength. The cost per replaced bolt is around $6 ( bolt $2.90, glue is 2$, drill bit $1).
If you have money and it feel it is approapriate for the location, use fixed hangers, ring bolts etc, but I suspect you will run out of money fast for this option.
Practice on a rock at home before bolting real rock. You will need to spend lots of time practicing and testing your technique, learning from others that have made the mistakes.
Its easy to stuff up the process and end up with an unsafe bolt
I would’nt kid yourself that any work you do wont be subject to legal scrutiny if a bolt pulls and someone is killed or injured. This is why you need to make sure that anything you do is absolutely top-notch and meets accepted standards.
# Reference Material
I have a stack of papers, engineering thesis link etc I can pass along to you if you are interested.
GlennJuly 19, 2006 at 12:00 am #4233
The following routes have been re-bolted:
The spin of it 15m 24- 3 bolts (2 rusted expansions and 1 7-8mm very shallow carrot), were replaced with 3 fixe p-bolts. FA permission was given to replace the carrot with a p.
MASC’ed boschman 15m 25- 2 Petzl longlifes, were replaced with 2 fixe p-bolts. Original bolts sheared off under mild encouragement right at the hanger!!, with visible corrosion on the exposed shaft behind the hanger and one had a hairline crack down it’s entire length. “SCARY”!!
After seeing how brittle the petzl longlife bolts have become after close to 15 yrs, we are hoping to replace the others in the area.Soon!!
Fat Chance 20- 3 petzls
Faith 20-2 petzls
Charity- 1 petzlsJuly 19, 2006 at 12:00 am #4234
Someone before asked about opinions on replacing machine bolts/carrots with fixed hangers/Pbolts. I’ve said it before and will say here again, all that fixed hanger or Pbolt does, when compared to a glued-in hex bolt without hanger, is make the climbing and escaping easier. That is why people like them. So a 24 that is rebolted with Pbolts is easier because you now do not have to hang around to put on a hanger first and could become a 23. Also Pbolts allow people who have no hope of dogging the thing to escape by lowering off from single Pbolt. There is no safety issue here at all.
Me I dont get on routes that I cannot at least hangdog and I like the glued in hex bolts as they are small visual impact. I mean if we really convince ourselves to mutilate nature in the name of recreation sometimes, (I do)then let us use bare minimum hardware. That is the art. On the other end of the scale you end up with the italian via ferrata clusterf**k. Yeh, people like them. They also like junk food and porno, so what, don’t mean it is way to go.
Except for quarries, I do not consider quarries to be nature, but man-made holes in the ground.
My 2c worth.July 20, 2006 at 12:00 am #4235
Thanks for your 2c.
But i believe you are still in the dark ages….get over it and move on with the times!
Just my 2cJuly 20, 2006 at 12:00 am #4236
The follwoing routes have been re-bolted:
Route to the right of “Setting sun”
3 chrome p-bolts- replaced with 3 fixe p-bolts.
Original bolts were not recessed at all and the glue which was smeared all around the hole was very poor quality and could be peeled off by hand!!.It took a quick twist with the crowbar and they screwed right out!!!. The bolts were covered in rust and were very obvious from the ground(mainly smeared glue!.
The new fixe bolts have been well recessed and camoflaged (bolts will receive a bit of paint when we have time in the next couple of days:)
Fat Chance 18m 20
3 Petzl Longlifes were replaced with 3 fixe p-bolts. Bolts were the same as the ones on MASCH;ed boschman, but did not shear off at the hanger. New bolts are well recessed and camoflaged(same again!, darkness came before we could paint the bolts!:)
Thanks goes out to the local climbers that spent the last 2 days re-bolting, as there was alot of effort involved and plenty of blood was shed!…:)
Big thanks to the group of Swiss climbers that donated the money that means we will be able to get alot of work done. Cheers Guy:)
PLease we need donations for drill bits(12mm SDS 100mm +), a bigger crowbar! and for tools in general as ours are taking a battering.
ALSO we took pleasure in removing the very very unnecessary “handrail” bolts on the decent path. So for those of you that have complained in the past, the job has been done!:).
cost: Effort and some epxoy putty:)
CheersJuly 20, 2006 at 12:00 am #4237
This is what CALM has to say about bolting (Policy Document 19):
“2.3.3 Any bolting or other modification of natural rock faces, including the provision of fixed belay points, must be carried out in accordance with the CAWA Climbing and Bolting Ethics and any additional requirements specified by the Regional or District Manager. The CAWA Climbing Ethics and CAWA Bolting Ethics are included with these policy guidelines. All climbers will be required to observe these codes, as well as relevant CALM policy guidelines and requirements in the Conservation and Land Management Regulations 2002, when climbing on lands managed by CALM. If reliance on these codes and ethics is found to be unworkable, bolting associated with climbing and abseiling may be regulated through enforcement provisions under regulation 31 of the CALM Regulations.”
By the looks George is not only keeping within the CALM rules but is also doing a great job!July 21, 2006 at 12:00 am #4238
Yeh, well done for the replacements. What glue are you guys using? I saw in one of the other strings Hilti HY150 was mentioned. I use Hilti RE500, it costs a bit more but is HEAPS better: (1) does not harden in a few minutes (2) colour is dark red which blends with rock lots better than the white 150, other than on limestone and (3) it washes off with water, before setting. Fits same glue gun.
Hey Kris, re: your comment, it is my opinion and I won’t get over it. My hope is that people read it and think things over.