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Hi all
Wow, I must have felt my ears burning, the first time I log onto this forum (bored at work) and the old Urban Ethics debate is alive and well!
I was actually the one responsible many years back for the first retro bolt of this climb. My reasons were simple, good quality climbs in Perth were few and far between and UE had cobwebs on it. The only people climbing UE were the Masters and a few others who knew the climb intimately and it was my view that the climbing community at large were being denied the opportunity to experience a classic climb.
I harassed Ron a few times when we’d meet at the quarry about the state of the gear on UE and he laughed it off so I took matters into my own hands after my mate fell off a route at Churchmans, broke a rusty piton and decked out from 15m. The gear I pulled out was shocking to say the least. Yes I added an extra bolt which pushed the ethical envelope but in my opinion the climb was poorly established in the first place and didn’t “flow” and being that it was bolted already why not do it properly? For the first time in years the climb got some decent traffic and I had many comments how good it was that it’d been re-established. Ron didn’t take kindly to my efforts and chopped it, replacing the bolts with pitons again.
Here’s the thing I don’t get with this ethical debate, just because you’re the first to “establish” a climb on a piece of rock that’s been around for how ever many thousands? of years, how does that make you the custodian of that piece of rock? Surely it’s there for everyone and your responsibility as first acentionist is to make sure the climb is established in such a way as to benefit the community at large. Please note I’m talking about protection here not the technical climbing as I don’t support altering existing climbs to lower (or raise) the difficulty.
As the generations of climbers pass the sport naturally evolves and with it so do the accepted norms. I’d like to think that climbs I established in the past are subjected to peer review (if they’re considered worthwhile routes) and altered to suit the currently accepted standard if required. There was a lot of stupid bolting done in my time by climbers stoking their egos by top roping new routes to comfort and then manufacturing huge run-outs and calling it “sporty”. This has ruined many potential classics and I think the climbers of today have every right to right the wrongs of the past. Once that first bolt is placed the climb has lost all value as a “trad route” so making run-outs is just contriving the route to be something it’s not. Climbing is a very personal experience so those that get a rush from big run-outs have every right to enjoy that experience and can do so by not clipping bolts and those that just want to enjoy the climb for what it is should be given the opportunity to do so with sensibly equipped routes. Just to clarify I do believe routes done purely with natural gear should be left as is no matter what the runouts because that is the “spirit of the route” as discovered.
I don’t climb much anymore and being away from the climbing scene has given me a different perspective to the one I once had as you get caught up in all the BS when you’re amongst it. I found the most close-minded climbers in the WA scene were the ones who’d not traveled and climbed elsewhere much, it’s probably much the same now.
It’s awesome that some of the new blood are coming through and not just talking the talk (like we used to) but actually doing something to improve the scene and bring WA climbing into line with the rest of the world.
To the dinosaurs who’ve been spouting the same BS for the last decade or two, stop stoking your fading egos and listen to what new generation want for their sport, they’ll get their way soon enough anyway and you’ll be long forgotten
What retro bolt on Vulture Street?
puting a bolt next to an old piton without removing the piton to see if a small wire can go in its place is retrobolting.
i believe that was done on vulture st.
its very poor form on a climb that is 95% trad and in an area like WCH.
I see. That bolt.
When I first climbed Vulture Street, there were two pitons. Both rusty. Then there was one. I’m sure the second piton was installed for exactly the same reason the bolt was. The original mild steel piton had become untrustworthy. I was a member of the party that installed the bolt. The piton was left because the bolt was glued in and nobody could be sure there wouldn’t be a climber on Vulture Street within hours of us leaving, clipping what they thought was a good solid bolt, climbing into the crux, installing the dodgy small wire, and falling ultimately onto a bolt that hadn’t finished curing. As for pulling the piton in the chance there may now be a wire placement, maybe there would be, maybe not. It would certainly change the nature of the climb. The frst ascensionist was Mike Law who I understand is quite relaxed about his climbs’ fixed protection being replaced with appropriate gear when appropriate. Vulture Street is only a 17, way below the grades he was and still is capable of and you would have to assume he was thinking about the climb, its grade and the people who would want to lead it. It is a great climb and its essential nature hasn’t been changed. I think that is what anyone setting out to replace old fixed protection should be aiming at. For what it’s worth, I’ll be talking to Mac and replacing the rusted piton in Bootiful sometime soon, for exactly the same reason but I won’t be putting another one in the scary bit below it.
Cheers,
Toc.
In the beggining of this thread I was really undecided about this chopped bolt dilemma. Today I led UE and found myself more scared at the top than the chopped bolt mid section. I think this ‘run-out’ has been exagerated. Its a little under a 2m gap with solid feet the whole way and a nice edge to clip off.
>=)
Good on ya Nick. As mentioned previously this was my original thoughts too. Thanks for the belay today Nick – it was great to finally tick it (with the chopped bolt!)
the FA of vulture street was not done by mike law.
the first priority should have been removing the piton to see if the climb could be all trad. the chance of anyone climbing it soon after the bolt was replaced was minimal (especially since you gave all our backpacks a lift back to the carpark !!!) and should not have driven the situation.
anyways… water under the bridge. just something to learn from next time. it seems worth seeing if the bolt really is needed next time someone is on the route though ?
i hope those glue capsules gave a better result than they did when used at stathams quarry…..
My mistake on Mike Law. There are climbers who get out to West Cape Howe, who knows, who may have been on their way out as we were leaving. Yes I hope the capsules hold but the piton is there at the moment until we are sure. At the moment Vulture Street is as I first climbed it in that there is a ring of some description at that particular point which protects the crux moves which as we know have one piece of dodgy natural gear. It’s hardly overprotected but is also not underprotected. I’d be interested to know other climbers thoughts on this one.
Cheers,
Toc.
Some comments on Andy Corbe’s contribution (my text in capitals, Andy’s in commas.)
Here’s the thing I don’t get with this ethical debate, just because you’re the first to “establish” a climb on a piece of rock that’s been around for how ever many thousands? of years, how does that make you the custodian of that piece of rock? Surely it’s there for everyone and your responsibility as first acentionist is to make sure the climb is established in such a way as to benefit the community at large. WHO EXACTLY IS “THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE”? NOT RON? NOT THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE ENJOYED THE ROUTE AS IS?
Please note I’m talking about protection here not the technical climbing as I don’t support altering existing climbs to lower (or raise) the difficulty. MEANING THAT ADDING BOLTS DOES NOT LOWER THE TECHNICAL DIFFICULTY? DOES NOT MAKE THE ROUTE EASIER TO CLIMB WHEN YOU ARE LESS WORRIED?
Once that first bolt is placed the climb has lost all value as a “trad route” SO “THE NOSE” HAS NO TRAD VALUE BECAUSE THE LAST PITCH IS BOLTED? OR SKYWALKER WHICH HAS (HAD?) A PITON AT END OF TRAVERSE? I DISAGREE.
Climbing is a very personal experience so those that get a rush from big run-outs have every right to enjoy that experience and can do so by not clipping bolts. BUT THE BOLTS ARE STILL AVAILABLE TO BE CLIPPED IF ONE GETS SCARED, SO HOW IS THAT A RUNOUT EXPERIENCE? MY RUNOUT EXPERIENCES HAVE BEEN “CRAP, NOW LETS SEE IF I HAVE BALLS TO GET THROUGH THIS”.
Just to clarify I do believe routes done purely with natural gear should be left as is no matter what the runouts because that is the “spirit of the route” as discovered. BUT ROUTES THAT HAVE 1 BOLT OR MORE DO NOT HAVE “SPIRIT OF THE ROUTE” WORTH PRESERVING?
I found the most close-minded climbers in the WA scene were the ones who’d not traveled and climbed elsewhere much, it’s probably much the same now. MANY OF US WA CLIMBERS HAVE BEEN ALL OVER THE PLACE. WE CHOOSE TO HAVE THIS SET OF ETHICS, OTHERS CHOOSE THE SAME OR OTHERWISE. TRY REBOLTING IN JOSHUA TREE OR ON GRITSTONE.
IT IS TOO BAD YOU GAVE UP ANDY. DESPITE ABOVE COMMENTS, I REALLY MISS YOU, YOU LUNATIC. BE WELL AND DON’T GET TOO PISSED AT MY COMMENTS. THEY ARE NOT FOR YOUR EDUCATION (YOU DON’T NEED ME FOR THAT), BUT TO GET THE OTHER READERS THINKING.
AS KERMIT THE FROG ONCE SAID: “MANAMANA!!!”
Neil/Emil: I could not agree with more. We are not about to see an onslaught of diminished ethics, because we are pretty much already there (but really what does it mater?). Every couple of years a group of us get on the net, sit at the crag and talk shit in the gym about the state of WA climbing (you can do this, you can’t do that, we should respect the FA and the style it was done blah blah blah).
And really for all the talk and all the hype little (if anything) changes, refer to some of the bolting posts that were going around in 2005. Not a lot has changed since then on the standpoint of ethics but there has been an explosion in the number of new and renovated routes in the Quarry’s that have been created for the masses (sic).
Owen summed it up well, you need to put into prospective, what is being created is more quality routes for climbers to climb. And recently there has been an increase because of a more creative approach to these long standing ethics. In Perth the number of climbers is limited, those bolting even less and those replacing old bolts on the endangered list. So anything new should be welcomed and experienced before it is turned away. I’m just thankful that there are a dedicated few, that do go to the effort to create a climb that is something different for the rest of us.
Richard: Hmm classic statue I agree. It is however still in a dirty filthy quarry. I do not enjoy the mud / gravel / shotcrete combo and broken TVs at the belay stance but this is part of the Perth quarry climbing experience – Yee Ha saddle up.
Jeff M to quote: “If the ethics don’t count in the quarry then theoretically I could go find a route that does not get that much attention a chip and rebolt it to something I like, ie make it easier or harder, safer or scarier” Yeah why not? Checking with the FA is advisable but in the end it is up to you.
There always has and there will always be a varied opinion on what makes good ethics especially in Perth Quarries. I have come to the conclusion that in Quarries (I differentiate between natural cliffs and quarries) it is only your ethics that matter. If you feel to need to chip/glue/remove the bolt/add the bolt, go ahead and do it, no one will stop you, some will call for a lynching, others will call for a lynching and enjoy the climb and others will praise you for the vision/effort and just climb the climb, enjoy it and move on. Quarries are climbing gyms on natural rock. Especially crumbling ones like Perth. It is about time that the route setters changed Sweet pea and while they are at it Hang ten (and a few others) as they are getting a bit old and the holds need a wash….
As for natural cliffs around Perth who’s kidding who – There are no pristine natural areas in Perth. There is the same amount of chipping and gluing on our “natural” cliffs. I will not muddy the water further by bringing natural cliffs into my ramblings but they should on the hole remain unchanged (but there are exceptions to every rule).
Adding extra bolts does not change the climb, it makes it no harder or easier. It only changes the mental perception of the climb in the climbers mind. It has long been said that it is not the climb that needs the extra bolt it is the climber. What’s my point in all of this? I am just sick of people telling others how bad their ethics are. Look at all climbing around the world and it is the same every where. Ethics are clouded, changed, overlooked and in many places totally abused. WA is no different.
Happy climbing
B-
To Quote MARK – “about time that the route setters changed Sweet pea and while they are at it Hang ten (and a few others) as they are getting a bit old and the holds need a wash….” what a load of crap!
re: Mark – the words “harder or easier” as I use them are related to both: “mental perception of the climb in the climbers mind” and the (one could say) “physical perception on the climbers body”! So bolts do matter.
It is not semantics: I have witnessed a grade 28 climber backing off a semi-bolted/semi-trad grade 18 at West Cape Howe (Harry Humpkin+Exploding Pumpkin). I do not consider this a difficult climb and have seen many grade 20 climbers do it. But that one found it too hard (purelly mentally).
What some people need to get realise is that “mental difficulty” is just as valid as “physical difficulty”, and many of us enjoy both, and the race to lowest common denominator is not to our liking.
The Perth ethic is one of respect: respect other people climbs and they will respect yours. Their ethics are not superior to yours, but neither are yours to theirs. There is a good mix of people and hence of climbs.
e.g.: I don’t like Jim and Matt’s bash-in carrots but I would not go pulling them out. I respect their work.
As far as for many alternations being made to natural crags – for every one example on the 30 natural crags I can give ten examples in the 3 quarries. 100:1 – simple, no?
Re: Mark You said “Ethics are clouded, changed, overlooked and in many places totally abused. WA is no different”. That is because there are always people like yourself who think the ethics don’t matter and will do what they want to a climb for their own benefit.
