- This topic has 49 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 7 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
New climbs – Willyabrup
Hole World (18m, 16)
Start 1.5m L of Orryjohn, at R end of overhang. Pull up on jugs, then up and L to large broken hole. Directly up buttress above, past a second, smaller hole. Trad, good gear/solid rock, take a no. 2 or 3 cam for the top hole. FA: Ross Weiter, Dinah Pantic, 3/10/04.
** <name unknown> (35m, 20)
This follows the line of “Simply Suicide” up to its first carrot, then goes up the face just L of SS. I climbed this on-sight last weekend and it seems that the crux is still getting past the old SS carrot. There are 5 new bolts with fixed hangers and one old, partially pulled-out carrot (which protects the crux). Take 2 medium cams, one for the mid-height break, and one for the near-top break. There were some comments on the CAWA web (discussion under “bolting”/”grid bolting at Gracetown crag”) that this is not a retro-bolt – half of it is. However it turned a crap climb into a good one, except for that old carrot. FA: Pascal Camison (?) Feb 2003.
Hi Ross,
Firstly, Dreamweaver (Mt Frankland) had many ascents on the weekend. Everybody who could lead it did, and everybody else seconded. Some did both. For three people it was their first ever multi pitch climb.
Thanks from all of us. It’s a good line and the protection is considerate.
One climber tested out the 5th bolt on the second pitch when she stood on a piece of rock which broke under her feet. You’ll be glad to know the bolt passed with flying colours.
Secondly, the line you have called “Hole World” I’m pretty sure is something I lead sometime in 1996 with Adrian Wood seconding. (Very kind of him, considering his ability.) At the time I was wandering along the cliff with no guide, looked up and decided it would go, not knowing whether it had been lead or not. I didn’t bother to write it up as I felt sure, so obvious a line would already be done. Even when I realized it wasn’t in the old guide, I didn’t really expect I had the first ascent and it wasn’t until a trip I made early this year with Ursula, when I got the new Margaret River guide and checked it out I was reasonably certain I had actually done the first ascent.
I’ll have another look next time I’m down there, but I’m just about 100% certain your climb and my climb are exactly the same one. If so, it needs a few more ascents to confirm the grade as both Adrian and I graded it at 15.
Cheers,
Toc.
By the way, I had been planning a trip with Liz to reclimb it, and then I was going to write it up and call it Que? because of the shape of the feature low down, Dinah said looked a bit like an S and I have thought of as a ? or an ear and because of all the time I spent questioning whether or not I had a first ascent, but you seem to have beat me to writing it up, but not the FA.
Maybe you did second it 8 years ago, maybe the Oldies did it in the 70’s, or maybe a bobtrail slithered up it 1000 years ago. Who knows for sure ?
I think it is fair to apply the commonly accepted rule applied to all areas of authorship -“Publish or Perish”.
Ross,
If it were decided by the commonly accepted rules of authorship the acronym would be FP not FA.
First ascent means first ascent not second ascent but I published first.
I did discuss the common rules of etiquette that apply in this case with people we both respect and after doing so I decided I was correct to claim the first ascent, for the simple reason that I did do the first ascent.
Cheers,
Toc.
PS Why don’t we call it “The Que? Hole”
It’s a better name than either we thought of.
PPS I note that you have credited Pascal with his line, though you have published it first.
Actually, I just remembered I climbed in 1994. Sorry about memory lapse, but I guess the first ascent is mine after all.
….did that wind you up ?
OK, go down there and if you are sure that the line I describe is the one you did in 96 then it’s your FA. “The Que? Hole” sounds clever and fine.
What do other people think about this kind of thing ? I’ve done several other “First Ascent” climbs and people came to me and said “I have done this 3 years before you and did not bother to publish it as I was too slack/modest/did not think it was worth it, but now I remembered/changed my mind/think it is important and want my name on the FA” ?
In the Perth guidebook I always gave it to them. An FA is an FA but it seems unfair on people like me and Dinah who get all excited and hoon up a 16 that we would otherwise just walk on by. Obviously Toc is a credible source but what if someone just made this up ? Any thoughts (from others than Toc) ?
(This web site has not had a decent discussion for a while so how about it ?)
Ross:
During my time in QLD this would often happen…
a story:
Once, after slogging our way uphill in QLD summer heat (for 4 hours) we climbed a so-called “new” route, only to later discover that Fred Frome had soloed it many years before. We credited Fred with the FA (even though, or perhaps because, he was deceased; and even more significantly was a good bloke).
my philosophy:
I dont really care who climbs a route first; its not important to me who’s name is in a guidebook. Infact, like many climbers, I often go to a cliff without a guide book to capture the spirit of the FA. Anyone can do this if they wish (provided the cliff is not damaged to the point that every hold is chalked, polished and obvious – a much more important issue than the FA in my view)
However for the purposes of compiling a factual record (guidebook), if the source is credible, then surely an FA is a FA, with or without publication.
Hence, in my view the FA is now Toc’s (like yourself I beleive he is credible) until someone with an earlier claim presently contradictory evidence.
In my humble opinion as a fair and reasonably logical person;
1: If it is important to have your name as the first ascentionist (as Toc does in this case) then the responsibility lies with that person to make it known about the first ascent around the time it occurred. If you do not verbally tell people or formally publish a new route then no one will know the route exists and you are asking for someone else to come along and climb it thinking THEY made the first ascent.
2: When there is dispute it is important to make sure you are both talking about exactly the same line. In the case in question I gather you are both happy that it is the same route?
3: The Pascal new route is pretty much common knowledge as there was alot of discussion about it recently on the CAWA website and around the traps.
4: Most climbers only climb existing routes and many only climb limited grades. To not publish is to possibly add confusion at a later stage and limit the crag to less adventurous climbers.
So it is not just about names and peoples egos. There are other considerations and responsibilities.
When a route is published it should have a route description which is important as it is the start or basis of the decision making process when a climber assesses a climb (particularly the less experienced climbers). A good route description will let a climber know if they are going to attempt something possibly outside of their abilities
There are people who just climb, put up routes and don’t mention anything to anyone else. They probably don’t care if someone else comes along and does the same routes and puts their name on it. They just want to climb. But if you are not that sort of person then make sure you do the right thing at the time to protect acknowledgment of your climbing achievements and to share the climb with others.
Ross,
Firstly, if the climb was too low graded to be worth your while if it had already been done, why do it at all? Secondly, a grade 15/16 is an excellent lead for Dinah, but it wasn’t her who lead it and if it had been a first ascent other than something I had unfortunately already done, she could have had her first real first ascent rather than tagging along behind you.
When I first lead it I, could see from the ground it was doable for me and at the time I was falling off a sizeable percentage of the 18s I attempted, so even if it was too low a grade for someone of your high level of ability, it was perfect for somebody like Dinah or me. By the way, Adrian Wood isn’t a bad climber either and he seemed quite happy to second me on something around 10 grades below where he was at. Could be just a different mindset. And another by the way; I wasn’t wound up as I knew for certain if you had done it in 1994 you would have published immediately.
What I was doing at the time was exactly as Glenn suggested, climbing without a guide book. He’s right it’s good fun.
Dinah,
I have explained in an earlier posting why I hadn’t yet published the route. Don’t forget also there wasn’t the ease of the website to publish at the time. I have published other routes I have put up as well as introducing people to a new crag that Andrew Garvin and I guessed existed at Mt Singleton and then took the trouble to go and look for. One of those people introduced was Ross. Unfortunately that is now closed as the landholders have been frightened by their insurance brokers. But ok, I will publish details of a few routes Andrew and I put up in the Pilbara, and a couple of others Doctor Dave and I and some others did in the Kimberleys, just as soon as I find the route descriptions.
Cheers to you both,
Toc.
Toc…what makes you think “the climb was too low graded to be worth my while ?” I have walked past 50 other climbs on that day, many of them definitely “hard enough” to be “worth my while”. We also did “Faith”, an excellent 14, done a million times before. Where does that leave your argument – firmly on the nose, I think.
And what makes you think that Dinah “tagged along” – you think she is so weak minded that she cannot assert herself if she does not want to do a route ? And you also seem to think that she never had a “real ascent”, or that seconding is not a “real ascent”. In that case Jon and I never really ascended “The Nose” in Yosemite as we both seconded (in fact jumared) half of it. Who do you think you are ? This web site was not created for you to slander off people you have a problem with, so kindly think before writing and stick to facts.
Easy fellers, geez, you’re acting like chuffing kids.
FA’s don’t need to be registered for the greater good. Sometimes a climber doesn’t think it’s worthwhile such as if it’s a 16 that we would otherwise just walk on by..
However, if you don’t publish a route then:
1. expect that with the number of climbers out there, the limited number of climbing locations, and the facility of newsgroups, some-one will publish your climb.
2. have the humility to accept the authors diligence.
In the context of a FA, it’s generally accepted that climbing as a “second” is not a real ascent.
I’ll be at Willys on the weekend and will check out this infamous line. It better be worth all this typing..
My God, has this ever got out of hand.
I quote, “An FA is an FA but it seems unfair on people like me and Dinah who get all excited and hoon up a 16 that we would otherwise just walk on by”.
If that’s not saying you wouldn’t have bothered with it if it weren’t a first ascent then I read it wrong.
After that. I’m used to climbing with climbers of all abilities and sharing/swapping leads whatever our respective abilities. When I have climbed with Dinah, we shared leads and there is certainly no way I could or would ever dream of saying or intimating she were weak minded. Slander doesn’t come into it.
Matt,
I liked the route and at the time I didn’t know it was a first ascent. I just liked it. I don’t think it’s a great route, but it’s a good route, it’s direct and it’s fun. I think we’d all like to know your opinion on the grade.
It wasn’t humility that stopped me from publishing early or particularly ego that had me claiming it now, it’s just an historically accurate statement. But yes, there is a certain charge in getting an FA and I do have enough competitiveness in me to like that charge, as does Ross, and Dinah, who has got a kick out of seconding them, when she does find and lead an FA will get an even bigger charge. Isn’t it a buzz that they are still out there in Western Australia to be had?
Particularly a fully natural line like this one which takes no more than the climbing to do.
Nextly, it was not until years later I realized it was an FA, something I have already said and yes I did since discuss it with other people, even pointing it out to them. But I wanted to reclimb it so my route description would be fresh and not from my weak and failing memory and hence possibly dangerous. I should also point out that the people I have spoken to, Ross, Dinah and I are far from strangers to each other. To pretend to Dinah and Ross that I didn’t know of any other FA would be an insult, and if they ever found out, which is highly likely, they’d want to know why I hadn’t spoken.
Now “Dreamweaver” which Ross put up at Mt Frankland is another proposition altogether. It took a lot of effort and commitment, an amount of vision and is gift to all the rest of us and I certainly for one, appreciate, thank and commend his efforts there as, does everybody else who climbed it on the last association trip.
“The Que? Hole”, was a half hour climb including getting the second up, whereas “Dreamweaver”, was a two day effort, plus the cost of materials, and then climbing it without ever knowing for sure until his first ascent, whether all his effort was going to be worth it. There’s a hell of a difference. “The Que? Hole” is fun and was no effort to put up, “Dreamweaver” is a lot of fun and was a huge effort to put up. Enjoy them both. I did.
Regards to all,
Toc.
Guys – A lot of messages over one climb.
Since Ross was the first person to go to the time & trouble to name and write up this climb, to me that gives him naming rights on it.
Any of the possible earlier ascentionists could have done the same, but chose not to.
Given the number of people who climb at Wilyabrup and the time that it has been a climbing area, it is quite likely that it has been climbed in the past.
Maybe the best thing is to put Ross’s & Dinah’s names of the climb, but also add a comment like “first ascent unknown” or “first ascent uncertain” to reflect that it has probably been climbed by others in the past.
Too much politics fellas. Either both of you need to get lives or simply tone down the ego (most likely all of the above). It’s all very pathetic- but entertaining none-the-less. Keep up the good work.
Hi Eugene,
Toc and Ross are our real names. Everyone knows who we are and what we stand or don’t stand for, and we both have very real and active lives.
Cheers.
Why not call the climb ‘Who gives a s@#t, it’s just a piece of rock’. Then when somebody asks you what you climbed at Willy’s you can answer by saying “Who gives a s@#t, it’s just a piece of rock”.
No, Eugene, this is serious.
While you or I, if someone came up and said, “I did that years ago”, we’d say “no worries”, and write it up with their name, or somebody’s name, or whatever. But there are some people who take this seriously.
TOC has recognised this and is deliberately trying to make Ross’ head explode. True the entertainment value is high but it is very cruel. He should desist and apologise.
(Personally I attribute my first ascents to John Howard. Never had a complaint.)
You make a good point Eddie Baby. However, whilst Toc does enjoy a good wind up we cannot ignore the stubbornness of both parties. Why can’t they just be friends and meet halfway. Both have made considerable contributions to climbing in W.A. over the years, both out at the crags and in the commitee room, but nobody- repeat, nobody- owns the rock we climb, even if they were the first… or second… or second last… or thier mothers first born… or thier mother’s 8th born… or if they were raised by a pack of Hungarian wolves in my home town of Kilimanjaro after being abandoned at birth. The rock was there millions of years before us and will be there millions of years after we’re gone. We have until sunset to work it out… Some people need a drama in thier lives.
As my father once said, “Son (always begins with ‘son’), you’re going to be dead one day, and your whole life will have meant nothing!”
I’ve gotta say, I agree with snorkel wobbler here.
Geez guys, for those of you who don’t think an FA is a big deal . . . .
There is a hell of a difference between leading up a route you’ve never been on before, and *knowing* that route is of a rating that you’re capable of (cos someone else rated it for you)- versus leading off on something NO-ONE has been on and that you only *think* you’re capable of!
Although established routes are far from surprise-free, you generally will know something about them. If you’re the first person on a route (or even if you only think you are!), the risks are that much greater.
Therefore my respect for anyone who does something as a first ascensionist, whether they really are the first or not, is right up there. I don’t think I’ll ever have the guts to walk up to a chunk of rock that I know absolutely nothing about and cast off on the sharp end.
And for those who publish their FAs so that the rest of us can go and have a play given some knowledge of how difficult the route may be, THANK YOU! You not only put yourself at risk physically more than the rest of us, but you also risk being dragged over the coals by anyone who then doesn’t like your route!
And for goodness sake Eugene and whoever else is using pseudonyms, grow some balls and use your real names!
My, there are so many angry people in the world.
Eugene your dad put his finger on it. Meaning is temporary. In the long run we’re all dead. The anarchy inherent in climbing makes this attribution of first ascents somewhat notional.
As you say the rock is for ever and ever. Except of course for the quarries. And some of those chipped routes. And no one owns the rock. Dubious claims by CALM, traditional owners and various property developers apart. So as Jack Nicholson said in the art movie Mars Attacks, just before the martians shot him, “Why can’t we just get along?”
People write up climbs so they can talk about them, get other opinions and relive the experience. And then those who come after can try alternatives, straiten the line, and all that. It’s all about drinks in the clubhouse and dreams and schemes. To make this a competitive event by demanding a particular recognition from an indifferent world is a curious variation. Not wishing to follow the modern pattern of attaching a value judgement to every observation, I might say – well, in some circles that’s how the game is played.
Then again as my old nan used to say, “pley naisly, don’t’a fait.”
It’s convenient that people do first ascents and write them up. But there is no need to be grateful. They’re doing it because they enjoy it, and if they didn’t. Well we’d have to do it ourselves, and it would be fun. I’ve done some first ascents (preen preen), admittedly not usually on purpose. Generally on longer natural (easy) routes where you’re halfway up with five pitches to go and you’ve been lost since pitch three. I haven’t written much up, and as Claire says, perhaps I am not properly considerate of the adoring multitude. Who would bestrew my path with roses as is the due of every first ascentionist.
Tread carefully, remember, the biggest egos are the most fragile.
Knighty & Eddie Baby, thanks for your support. Good to see there are other rational & unselfish thinkers out there. Rock climbing is, like all other sports, a game which should be enjoyed with friends, not full of conflict between apparent competitiors off the field. One of the reasons I enjoy it so much is because it is us against the rock, not us against each other. Unfortunately when this kind of arguement arises it brings the sport into total disrepute. Seriously Toc & Ross, are you here to support rock climbing as a whole, or is your sole objective to support yourselves in a vien effort to boost your own ego’s? Think about that.
As for Diane… well how would you like it if your parents thought it would be amusing to change your name by deed poll to something like Eugene Snorkelbender when you were 7 years old. After all those years of being picked on in the school ground over my name I finally thought I’d found sanctuary when I discovered the understanding and accepting nature of rock climbers, only to now find someone thinks my name is so ridiculous that it must be a pseudonym. As my fiancee Ophelia Balls always says, “Ugliness and bad names are only skin deep”. Although just between you and me I think she secretly is looking forward to being Ophelia Snorkelbender.
Hi to all,
Thanks Diane.
Eugene if you don’t like your name, change it. Just make sure that everybody knows who you are all of the time. Course you could be joking, who knows.
As for supporting rockclimbing, I’m not going to be secretary next year. Neither will Ross, he’s done it before too. Want a job?
Whatever else Ross and I may or not not be, we will stand up and if people really want to throw rocks at us, at least they’ll be certain of who their targets are. And are we ever competitive, you bet we are.
By the way, “The Que Hole” is an amalgamation of both the names we had given it. Initially I wasn’t too impressed with it as a name, but I really like it now. I hope Ross does as well. So how about somebody else go and climb it, because we’re still disputing the grade.
Cheers all,
Toc.
Phoowhey! Poor Ross and Toc, I’m sure they didn’t mean for it to end up like this. But I sure am enjoying it!
… and i like the pseudos, it adds a bit of mystery and allows people to inject some wisdom and humour without adding their own ego into the mix.
I do like a debate – sometimes the fingers type faster than the brain can judge though. Trigger happy?
Something my mother never said to me: “Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone’s got one and some of them stink”. (Not that yours does of course.)
