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nothing like a good strong discussion…but to all those who are currently chipping in about this “disagreement” go back and re-read the thread….ross credited toc with the first assent and the proposed merging of the name back in reply 5….and everyone is carrying it on
having said that…
the rock has been there for however many million years and will be there for however more million years long after all the names we give routes have been forgotton..so in the whole picture names and grades have very little meaning..
but for us in the here and now…a first assent is not there for everyone to look at the assentants name and bow down and worship them…but rather just give then the respect and credit they deserve for getting out there and furthering the sport…taking nothing from eugene and eddie who may very well like many others just like getting out there and climbing a chunk of rock regardless of names and grades just for the pleasure of climbing….
but for most of us climbing is a sport as well as a lifestyle where we compete against ourselves…and the measure or the competition is in the grades….big thank you to those out there that get out there and put up the new stuff and an even bigger thanks to those that spend the time, effort and expense of putting in fixed protection…
cheers all
jamie
Name changing isn’t such a bad idea Toc. Any suggestions?
Thankfully I’ve got one of the coolest names on the planet, hehe. Any harsh words to Diane will result from a karate chop from me, so don’t get too heated yourself Diane. 😉
Nothing to cause more debate here, but when I make new routes (although boulder routes don’t seem to be considered real or respectable in WA), I mainly want people to drop in and make more routes in the same region.
Now some fellow Stoneville climbers have come in and setup a new route in my ‘sanctuary’, I couldn’t be more stoked (G’day cam and squirmy by the way!). 😀
It’s only fair to credit climbers who’ve set routes there previously, as I would like in the same situation, but if anyone wants to really claim ownership of the place, hmmmmmmm……..
Eugene, do not be discouraged. When the discussion turns from the issues at hand to your name, or the funny shape of your nose, or the brief acquaintance of your parents, then you know you have struck a chord. The secret is to speak to the wider audience.
Although it may not have been wise to give your full name. TOC says he wants everyone to know where he lives so they can come around and throw rocks at him. It is conceivable that those of a more sensitive and retiring nature, not wanting to have their lights punched out by the FA fan club, might be more circumspect in their communication.
And to Jamie, if you think all is sweetness and light, try reply 9 for a colourful dummy spit. Still if they both want to call themselves the first ascensionist, well why not. We’ll put their names up with Buhl, Messner, Rathbone and the two Ronnies. But is it not these star-crossed lovers that now concern us. The gulf that divides them is wide and probably goes beyond 8m of grade 16.
No. It is the exploration of the theory of cosmic insignificance. And why the canonisation of the first ascensionist can only be a futile gesture against the dust of the centuries. Some climbers open routes, some put in bolts. And if we hear about a good line with a few bolts we try it and compare notes. And maybe we find a line and put in a bolt, or take one out. And if you think putting in bolts is hard, taking unnecessary bolts out cleanly can be very tricky. The whole thing works pretty well and we usually manage not to do irreparable damage. And if people want to yell at each other, well, as my old nana Fatima Habibi, God grant her peace, used to say, “Edwaard, you stan behin’ de camel, he shit on you.”
i said nothing about this being all sweetness and light…only that the issue of the first ascent was delt with by reply 5…..and it seems that there is a great deal of reading between the lines, misunderstandings and hurt feelings…
think everything should be just put behind us and get on with whats really at issue…having a good climb and enjoying ourselves
Now that young Jamie, was a dummy spit. Consider yourself intentionally wound up and covered in camel shit.
yawns…
sorry what was that eugene?
Gordon Bennett! Anyone in favour of deleting this thread?
And so dear reader, all the contenders have fled the field.
It’s so quiet in here.
But you ask, did it mean anything at all
Life’s but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Good night children. Everywhere.
Hush…..I’m sleeping.
Hi all,
I’ll say this quietly so as not to awaken Dinah, I have not left the field.
I would appreciate someone else climb The Que Hole so we can get some more opinions on the grade and when you do let us know.
Cheers all,
Toc.
By the way, I can’t be on committee next year, neither can some of the others, so if anyone out there wants to really support climbing in WA, how about doing what Ross and I have both done and put your hands up.
I’ve been following the discussion with a certain dramatic anticipation to the outcome, but, I am still no wiser, can someone tell me who it was, that ended up with the bigger willie.
G’day wordsmiths,
I have left WA and am now working and living in Oman (this email is sent from my office in Muscat) for a few years. Thanks for all your contributions, amongst us we have set a CAWA record, which is great.
Just to explain, I did not set this up as a public argument because I wanted Toc and myself to give ourselves black eyes. I have had enough private emails with Toc and have shared a house with him for a year and we can certainly talk (most of the time). This discussion was set up because (a) the CAWA web site had gone a bit quiet over winter and (b) I really wanted to know what other people think about this. If I can just briefly respond to a few things:
I think all discussion is worthwhile, about anything. In my experience people who say “this is not worth discussing” only do so to boost their own egos; e.g. to say “I’m so clever this is below me”. Bollocks, if you have nothing to contribute – then say nothing. We must discuss things.
Communication is what has driven the human race forward. In the long run we will all be dead, our guidebooks dust and deeds forgoten, but if one takes this attitude literally then why live at all ? Why not just jump off the top of Bluff Knoll, eh ?
Discussion leads to for politics (and sometimes is mistaken for politics) and in Australia politics is a dirty word. But politics is how things happen ! Without discussing, understanding each other, getting other people’s opinions and working with them, any one person will achieve little. One climber’s voice counts for little in the wider world – hence we have CAWA (notice how we have no climbing bans in this state ?)
So, to wrap this up, I respect Toc – he pisses me off often and I know I piss him off too. But we can live with that, and we use our real names and we have real lives….way beyond what you would believe from these emails. We both care about climbing it is important to us and we talk about it. Even though one day we will be fogotten.
By the way, what is wrong with having an ego ? I think a stong ego is critical in a sport like this, i.e. strong belief in one’s self. It has got me through some very sticky situations where doubting one’s ability is not a good idea. Egos are hard to kill, unlike shirking violets.
Anyway, that’s it. Rumour has it that there is a fair bit of chossy limestone here, some of it over 2000m high. Me, my ego, hopefully some other lunatic and my trad climbing gear look forward to the battles to come.
Until we turn to dust – good luck to you all, go climb a rock. Again, thanks for comments.
Ross
Gee Ross, that’s a bit of a shock! Well… have fun in Oman. 🙂 I know our opinions have differed sometimes, but massive respect for all you’ve done. I’m hoping to follow in your footsteps for the bouldering world and produce a few guides, etc. Although anything nearly as huge and comprehensive as your effort would be something difficult!
Cheers mate! 🙂
John
Come back Ross, all is forgiven.
Just joking, enjoy Oman. I would.
I could not have expressed those sentiments better and completely agree.
Cheers,
Toc.
Dang !
Just when you think you’ve had the last word everyone else chips in.
.
So what was it all about. Well the original matter was concisively dealt with in the Glen/Matt replies, about 6/11. Thereafter one protagonist lapsed into silence the other into incoherence.So we got to talk about meaning and the importance of being in on a FA and guidebook glory. Really it was just an opportunity to hang out and chat with the other groupies.
All Quite fun. Not beneath us at all. If it were beneath us we wouldn’t carry on like this. No, we wouldn’t say anything. Those who find this beneath them remain silent. Which is probably why we’re such a select little group. If I may include myself in the small but happy band that has colonised this web site.
And now the first protagonist has made a political comeback. How to comment?
So what is wrong with egotism?
This is what is wrong with egotism.
“Who do you think you are? This web site was not created for you to slander off people…….you think she is so weak minded that she cannot assert herself…… go and jump off Bluff Knol… rant rant”
Ok, but does it matter? What consenting adults do in the privacy of an internet website is up to them (I’m sure if Brittney Spears set up a webcam in her shower none of us would intrude).
After all it’s not like noisy neighbours keeping me awake all night. So egotism, while distasteful, should be harmless, and useful sometimes in identifying difficult children. Not to mention its role in politics.
I like your critical thinking. When I was younger I had no appreciation for the influence that our collective social behaviour plays in influencing our actions and ideas.
Jackie Kiewa wrote a very interesting PhD thesis on this topic, which was published around 2001 (Griffith Uni, Qld, Australia). I believe she discovered that climbers, like many other social groups, construct their own socially acceptable behaviours, and even “myths” and/or hero’s (not to mention villians…). Apparently, sometimes we form very fixed ideas on what is “good” and what is “bad”, what is right and wrong. It seems we make our own ideology, and sometimes we even enforce it on others, even when we don’t know we are doing it.
(In truth, I still have very little knowledge in this area, but its fun to think).
Perhaps this topic on free ascents is a “case in point”. The concepts are subjective, the social behaviour, fragmented in its views, but guided by entrenched ideology. The result: chaos. I love it.
Well, might I say that the social construct of the spinning infinity of the hurdy gurdy which creates a phsycological vacuum after the worlds stage that children see as a paranormal adduct becomes reality two fold the intensity of the previous one stands up and says “What a load of s#*t, this has nothing to do with rock climbing at all”.
But, as my father Humungous once said, “If god didn’t want us to manipulate the genome of the Golden Canola plant, he wouldn’t have given us restriction enzymes”.
Huh?
I don’t reply to people not willing to use their own name, or those without manors.
G
That is a reply Glen.
Yes Glen, absolute chaos.
And if you think this lot is odd, try the VCC, or BMC for that matter. Or of course the rapacious DOC.
Hi all,
I did my second ascent of “The Que Hole” two weekends ago during the CAWA trip. Aiden Beyer seconded. It was Aiden’s first trip away and he seemed pretty happy about it. I must have been having a very good day back 8 years ago, as I agree it is a 16 not a 15.
One of the reasons I didn’t publish early this year when I realized it had been a first ascent, is I had thought the that by the time you have climbed the buttress you’re a bit run out and if you are not climbing several grades higher than this as Ross or even I, are, you might want a bolt.
What do you think Ross? There is good gear below the buttress and a bomber #3 Hex placement (side on) above it, but I didn’t find anything in the middle, either time I’ve done it.
Cheers,
Toc.
Hi Toc. I found a mid-size cam placement in the middle of the buttress, 4m above the que-hole (in another, much smaller hole). I did not place any gear to the side. I trust you are well and hope that this helps.
Ross
why are you guys such nerds talking with such a confusing vocaulary ??
