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The subject of bolting and re-bolting has been throuwn around and debated for many years now. Some work has been done, but on the whole there is still plenty more to be done!.
There are plenty of opinions out there as to the how, where and what with. But once a process that “we” see as being in the best interest of the climbing community is agreed upon, the rest is positive support and hard work(sure, and a few other things!)
Re-bolting initiatives are actively re-placing manky fixed protection throughout the east coast and around the world. With the main focus not being about promoting bolting, but in making climbing safer (relatively) and encouraging climbers to contribute more to their beloved sport.
Most climbers i have talked to have expressed their willingness to contribute to such a fund, wether its through time and effort, money, bolts, equipment, fundraising etc.
The workload faced in Western Australia is quite significantly less than that of the eastern, which means that we don’t really have any excuses(hellish workload and lack of funds. might be one!).
Safer Cliffs Australia receives all its funding from local climbers, a select few outdoor stores and ultimately out of the pocket of those who are willing to do the work. They have rebolted close to 150 routes in victoria alone and the majority of this work has been done by 2-3 people.
I for one am willing to spent time out there, but without contributions from the greater climbing community I’m sure this will again become something that people only talk about!.
Some may ask, Why would you go to the trouble of re-bolting a climb thats omebody else put up?. My motivation come from the fact that i have on numerous occasions walked up to a route or even read about a one that has the description “Great route, but needs re-bolting”!.
So where to from here? as I see it and i definately could be wrong!!
1. people need to decide wether they want to contribute to such a fund?
2. How people can contribute in their own way? time, money, bolts, equipmente etc.Delivered to the appropriate people (people doing the re-bolting) by cash, delivered, direct deposit??
3. Alternative means of raising funds? Collection boxes in the Gyms and outdoor stores, raffles, slide night collections, donations from outdoor stores?.
4. Where do the funds/equipment end up?
People could nominate a climb and donate the money/bolts.
this contribution could then be creditted on a re-bolting database (if the person approves)
General discussion through the forum as to which climbs need the work?
5. Issues relating to this Initiative?
Environmental- What bolts to be used where?. to Camoflage bolts or not?
Liabilty- As with Safer cliffs, the contribution can be totally anonymous.
read the disclaimer “CLIMBERS DONT SUE!!”
Ethics- Making sure all understand the concepts of re-bolting and retro-bolting.
6. Have a database of re-equipped climbs?. Through the Safer Cliffs network?. Safer cliffs Western Australia? apparently it is possible!
Well this is all food for thought(hence the post)and i hope you can find you own ways of contributing. i also really encourage you to contribute positive ideas (it dosn’t matter how long you have been climbing ) and see that this is the time to give back. For those of you that will only see the negative, I hope you enjoy clipping “that new bolt” the next time you venture out.
Well that is definately my 2 cents worth and i hope it strikes a cord with someone out there. If anybody wants to contact me my email is gdfirth@hotmail.com
Thanks for listening.
p.s if anybody has contacts in any of the gyms/stores could you please push the message and hopefully we can get some collection boxes happening!.
please, can this section of the forum remain only for the use of re-bolting discussion.
Sorry, that heading should read
WA Re-bolting fund
Im in!
There are plenty of routes (esp down south) that i have never done because of the shithouse bolts. Im thinking Toy Shopping at Bobs, Banan…. at Wallcliffe and Masked Boshman at Willeys as good examples. How many times have you cursed Shane R’s name for his tightarse single bolt loweroffs?
Bolts dont last forever folks and here is someone willing to do the work for a little bit of cash to cover expenses. This is a good thing….
Good idea,
I think the collection tins at the gyms (and someone pointing it out to climbers there) is a good idea, As is getting “sponsorship” from local shops.
So I’m keen to help in any way, I have a 24volt hammer drill but have kept it at home, Would prefer someone with a bit of experience to show me how it should be done first.. and would obviously follow any bolting guidelines.
Cheers
Sounds great. Top idea Roo to get sponsorship……GOOD LUCK! I’m keen to add to a slush fund, but not keen on donating to carrots though.
Think we have to make sure we RE-BOLT and not RETRO-BOLT, as this could piss lots of people off.
this should be done for sure.
I’m keen to help out in whatever way.
Fantastic, great to hear some positive feedback.
What is needed is for people to start nominating climbs that they think need re-bolting. Then for concensus to be gained on what equipment is needed i.e what type of bolts( Expansions, glu-in P’s/machine heads etc)and how many $$. Im sure there are climbs in perth that need fixing up?, but it’s up to everybody to start the ball rolling and NOMINATE!.
FUNDS/EQUIPMENT- I have emailed both the gyms, but am yet to receive a reply (does anybody have their personal emails/ or know them in person?) Once we have a green light, we can get some tins put in and start encouraging people to donate to this positive climbing initiative. I am hoping to get some hardware from one of the gear stores (Mainpeak), but have had no replys from MD’s, Paddys, snowgum, are there anymore??.
HELP… It is hard for me to contact these people one on one as im not in perth all that often. If anybody is willing to try and encourage the store to chip-in and donate gear/instal tins:) then let me know and i will possibly send you some encouragement info(if you are stuck at all for ideas!). Im not sure when the next Gym crash is/or event?, but if nobody objects, i think this would be a perfect time to collect some kind donations.
But People are going to want to know where their hard earnt biccys are going and to what climbs?? So cast your mind back to when you last had an experience with a 20yr+ rusted timebomb!!and include it in the file!
As i said if you can think of any way in which you can personally contribute please contact me. Thank again
I’ll give you A$1,000 for expansion bolt/hangar comboes, double ring belays (so that people can lower off/top rope) and the necessary glue. Re-bolted routes to be CAWA committee approved, its to be a CAWA administered fund for rebolting only and funds retained in a separate bank account, work to be voluntary or paid for outside the fund. No contribution otherwise.
To be clear, carrots/glued machine bolts without hangars are not on my agenda for rebolting. As far as I’m concerned such routes either deserve to be retrobolted or pulled entirely. I know I’ve said the contrary but that’s simply because I’m equipped to deal with them, a great many aren’t. The protected sport climbing world has moved on, I’ll never support their replacement with same.
George,
Sorry to break it to you but Snowgum is RIP! In WA anyway.
As has been mentioned… “for concensus to be gained on what equipment is needed i.e what type of bolts( Expansions, glu-in P’s/machine heads etc)and how many $$” but what has not been discussed is the depth and breadth of experience of the people placing the bolts clearly a bolt will only be secure as the abilities of the person placing it. It is my belief that if CAWA is going to be involved in establishing guidelines and standards for bolting then the boltees experience should be a part of those guidelines.
re 500 is the bomb as far as glue is concerned.
This glue as massive braking stain, well over a ton of outward pressure.
As for bolt preferance,anything thats not bashed in for me.Other than that its just going to be a debate of personal preferance.
Hi Dave,
I can sense by the subtle nature of your post that you might be refering to “ME”!. I will be the first to admit that i have not placed all that many bolts and am far from being an expert on the subject.
Having not heard from anybody on the committee in regards to this matter, i am can not say what stance they will want to take?. But taving talked with Neil Monteith from Safer Cliffs on the matter, i got the impression that no Assosiations (i.eVCC) really wanted to be apart of governing any re-bolting effort. This seemed due to liabilty issues anyway and not from any lack of concern and interest in the issue!. But they have been really helpful in unofficially raising funds(from Members in a social sense).
So really my efforts so far are in the interest of getting those with bolting experience (quite small) to maybe mentor or direct those with lesser experience (me). I have already spoken to some climbers in regards to the issue, but as dave has pointed out, their needs to be more interest shown from those with the appropriate experience.As i have already said, we need to start by getting interest, work out how it will be done, then GET THE JOB DONE!.
I see your point Dave, but this topic has gone round and round over the year and after looking at some of the bolts out there, i am sure in alot of cases a new well placed bolt will be a welcome change.
I for one a am well aware of the seriousness of getting it right, but i would also like to see it become more than just hot air on a forum. I will take it that from your post you are more than happy to help out in anyway possible?.
Still havn’t got your email address!
Hmm, sounds like we need to get the interested parties together for a MEETING!! I know it sounds like a bunch of wank but we’ll never get anything accomplished yapping back and forth on the discussion board.
I’m happy to organise it (I can even get us a meeting room at UWA for free)- what does everyone think?
Good idea if you can get right people to attend: existing bolters, existing FA climbers, access owners, finally the bolting ethics setters and assorted extras. Absent them George is doomed to failure at the hands of the sceptics.
I’m in the middle east temporarily but have bolted a few climbs around WA in the past & so have some comments. There is a comment in the string that glue-in-hexes should not be accepted for rebolting. I have been kind of main exponent of this type of bolting in natural environs (not in quarries where I have used P-bolts or hangers as this is std. for clipups, also not for overhangs where removable hangers bend). I don’t really understand why all bolts need to have fixed hangers (or rings) – glued hexs are safe, strong, unobtrusive, and preserve the Aus tradition of minimum impact bolting. It also allows for closer spacing of bolts, as closely spaced (even camouflaged with paint hexes) are low impact, whereas closely spaced Pbolts can be hard on the eye. Land managers do not object to bolts which they cannot see. All that hangers add is making the route easier (often by 1 grade) by making the clip less strenuous. Except there are a few places (Gibraltar Rock) where hangers are useful as it is very difficult to actually SEE the hex bolt (lost amongst large crystals and due to the wandering nature of the climbs).
So please do not dismiss any bolting method outright as things are not that black/white and horses for courses. Except perhaps for carrots where pullout strength is just too weak on anything but granite slabs.
Bolting fund – why not have CAWA set this up? I mean CAWA is there to promote climbing, so if this is what climbers want then why not? In the past CAWA has paid for plenty of bolts that are out there now. If they are installed well they will not fail, so that’s that for liability concerns.
Since neils post 2003- re: excessive bolting @ Willyabrup none of the bolts have been removed or even talked about(in an official sense). On numerous occasions I have been out there and everytime i see people using those 2 glued in (if you could call it that) hex heads, instead of using the abundance of natural protection that is spread across that clifftop (complete laziness). Those bolts have been removed, along with another 4 (glued-in hex’s)which were placed in front of more bomber naural protection.
The bolt on the small block that is on the left as you look down the cliff(above “hope”), came out with very little encouragement (the surposed glue seemed to be some sort of car filler)and not to mention the fact that 1 person could wobbly the block back and forth!!. These bolts have worried me for too long now and the ease at which they came out seems even more worrying!!. The number one reason these needed to come out was. 1. They were totally unethical and sent a slack message out there to people who hadn’t learnt the basics of setting up a top-rope anchor system (off big obvious anchors) and 2. because the person who placed them not only placed them in bad positions(wobbly block), but also with inadequate equipment(car bog). So after nearly 4 yrs of debate these eyesores are no more.
All holes have been patched with epoxy putty, mixed with dirt.
Cost- $10 epoxy filler
P.S these bolts were not CALM tagged bolts (rings)- thats a whole different(but similar)kettle of fish!!
A thankless task removing shit bolts. So thought I would just say thanks for your efforts.
Yep count me in for any help, I have some experience of placing ring bolts and ‘U’ bolts, also re-bolting of sport climbing areas when I lived in the UK. We also had the same issue of bolt funds.
This sounds like a great initiative, how do i donate???
Sounds good guy’s, just need to get the appropriate people together and workout the how, what, where and when.
Is this really all the climbers that have something to say?, geez there mustn’t be many dodgy bolts out there!!Iwould have thought more people would have been voicing their support or opinions anyway!!
Hi George
Sorry if you thought my posting was directed at yourself but that simply is not the case. i was only trying to draw attention to the fact that the discussion so far had been about collecting appropriate data on all the factors that will impact upon the quality of bolt placements. i just wanted to throw my two cents worth in re a relavent factor that appeared to be being overlooked.
ross, valid argument, point taken…if the day ever comes i’ll hand you those glory non-fixed hanger leads (and NO penalty slack). off topic – i found a good french speaking contact to obtain details on oman.
No worries Dave, yours was a good point…stillhavn’t got your email..drop me a line on gdfirth@hotmail.com
Well Jen!, it could be a little disappointing if more people don’t get involved.maybe it’s because of all this fantastic unseasonal june weather we’ve been having..everybodys out climbing.
